Thursday, December 09, 2010

The Cult of Permissiveness

I had a flashback to a fundie troll I once dueled with named Annie. She was a crazy mom who repeatedly argued that the atheist readers of the blog chose to become atheists because we wanted to lead a sinful life. That's what she told her children, and we called her a liar for it. I wish I thought to phrase my rebuttals the way I'm going to write this post:

Fundamentalists live in a culture of permissiveness that disgusts us. That disgust is what motivated me to stop attending church. There were a number of moral boundaries I refused to cross, and I refused to associate with anyone who took such a flippant, frivolous attitude towards those boundaries.

The doctrine of Hell requires a permissive attitude towards torture.

Annie's atheist concentration camps (I believe she actually used the phrase "concentration camps"!) require a permissive attitude towards killing and religious persecution.

Creationism requires a permissive attitude towards deception.

Belief that god ordered the wars described in the Old Testament requires a permissive attitude towards genocide.

Belief that god's will is our purpose for living requires a permissive attitude towards slavery.

Belief that our humanity is defined at the moment of conception, in my experience with pro-lifers, appears to require a permissive attitude towards eugenics: The ones I've dealt with essentially were arguing that our DNA defines whether or not we're a person, not our thoughts, emotions, and consciousness.

Belief in the fables about people "cursed" or "chosen" by god was used to establish and maintain a culture of permissiveness towards slavery, murder, and racism.

Belief in the dominance of one sex over another was, and is currently being used to maintain a culture of permissiveness towards rape.

Belief in the value of faith requires a permissive attitude towards hubris and the idea that a person can be infallible and beyond question. In other words, faith is the act of believing oneself to be the supreme being. All the other vices owe a lot towards this attitude.

115 comments:

Anonymous said...
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Don said...

How has this asshat not been arrested yet?

Bronze Dog said...

Copypasta formatted comment deleted. DM, if you want to be taken seriously, try speaking like a real human being would. So far, you've done nothing except announce to the world that you're no different than a parrot.

If you were an adult, you'd try to convince us that there's some actual, you know, thought going into what you type.

I doubt you even know what your opponents believe or why.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bronze Dog said...

And he responds with yet another copypasta.

DM, try reading for once. The only posts I'll let through are posts that look like they were written for this specific post. If it so much as stinks of one of your usual copypastas, it's in the trash can.

Anonymous said...

add comment moderation to your BS, you little idiot...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bronze Dog said...

Why bother with comment moderation? It's going to be more trouble than it's worth if some of my friends show up. Right now, I can handle your spam with a few clicks without disrupting anyone else.

It's cute how you're avoiding any sort of discussion about the real issues with changing the subject in the other thread. "Bronze Dog doesn't update his blog regularly, therefore I'm right!"

The universe doesn't revolve around me. The universe doesn't revolve around you. We are mere mortals. You are not the master of the universe. If gods exist, I highly doubt they bow before your alleged denotational might.

So far, I'm taking your silence on the moral issues I brought up for acceptance. Do you want me to accept the idea that your religion is a cult of permissiveness?

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

add comment moderation to your BS, you little idiot...

Bronze Dog said...

Hey, idiot. I've already responded quite reasonably to that exact pair of posts. Try acting like a human being instead of a mindless propaganda bot. You must have a really pathetic god if he stoops to worshiping a parrot like you. I'm glad for that god's sake that he most likely doesn't exist, and thus wouldn't feel the shame.

Don said...

Dude, he's completely unable to break form. He's got to be come kind of control freak; when confronted with something that doesn't go to plan, i.e. being recognized at an atheist convention, he flips out, pulls a fire alarm, and runs off.

I recommend you just hit him with the banhammer like so many others of us have. There is a 0.0% chance that you will ever be able to actually communicate with this asshole.

Bronze Dog said...

I think I'll have fun for a few more comments, just in case there's an error bar of +/- 0.05 on that estimate, then I'll get back to deleting his unoriginal copypasta.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...
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Dark Jaguar said...

How weird of this guy to ask you what you want, considering he's visiting your site...

At any rate, the answer is simple, you need to actually state what your position is and what exactly you are trying to do, minus the empty threats.

Note: This does not mean you should make the threats "un-empty", it means you should stop making threats.

Anonymous said...
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Ryan W. said...

He seriously hit a fire alarm? What a dickhole.

At least he hasn't resorted to calling us geeks and nerds yet.

Verification word: Krangti

A brain without a head and a drink with jam and bread.

Anonymous said...
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Bronze Dog said...

DM, I've already told you what you need to get a comment through without deletion.

And it's pretty sad when you're citing Wikipedia to defend Nostradamus. Do you seriously think there's something on there we haven't already covered over and over again?

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...
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Bronze Dog said...

The repeat copypastas I'm deleting should do a good job of demonstrating just how evasive you are, DM. Try giving us some actual content in a conversation, not repetition of points that we've long ago addressed.

Anonymous said...
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Don said...

I'll say one thing for this guy: he's definitely persistent.

Probably thanks to some psychological damage, but still. Props.

Ryan W. said...

It'd be more entertaining if he said something amusing rather than posting youtube links and spelling errors.

Like I said at your place, Don; what do these people think they are accomplishing by doing this shit?

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

youtube.com/watch?v=lz4R0GHfM-Y&

why does everyone always want to PUNCH you, shermer?

MWchase said...

I've stayed out of this, but I finally want to give it a shot...

Mabus, you do realize that the typical mode of civil discourse involves conversations that focus on topics, right? I can't tell if your rejection of this convention is some kind of revolutionary statement about social mores, or if you've simply remained unaware of this unifying principle, for years.

Or maybe, I don't know, you're fucking crazy.

(Look, see! There's a "u" in there!)

Anonymous said...

So without me here the place is pretty much dead, it says alot Bronzie, but perhaps you live in world delusional eh?

In any case you are quite sad indeed, promoting your Atheism "dogma" and continue to pretend that Atheism is good (thats why it leads to so good things, like Nazism, Stalin, Mao etc), but you live in your world, promote hatred and evil and act like its "good", well you know, harming people and raping kids because "you can" does not make you a very nice person and promoting this evil is even worse.

I feel sorry for your parents, that they did not manage to educate you correctly about Jesus our Lord and Saviour, but perhaps they wanted you to be condemend to hell, who knows, perhaps they saw what a disgusting vile creature you where and let you become what you truly are, an Atheist Nazi commie wanting to Destroy America.

Sad indeed, Thankfully we got people like me that make this nation as Great as it is, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

Bronze Dog said...

Again, you're under the delusion that you've actually contributed to the blog, DM. This is the first time you've actually said anything even remotely coherent.

I've been quiet because I have a life outside my blogging. Of course, you probably think that because you don't see it, it can't exist. (And think long and hard about how you'll reply to that bit, because I'm ready for the straw men that will follow.)

1. Hitler was a Catholic, and never an atheist. He was even a devout believer in Creationism. Try reading what he said.

2. Not only was Hitler immoral to support his form of eugenics, he was stupid for doing so. Evolution has taught us that genetic diversity is a hedge against extinction. Eugenics cuts down on genetic diversity.

3. Stalin and Mao did their horrible things in the name of totalitarian Communism, not atheism. Their atheism was about as relevant to their politics as Hitler's vegetarianism.

4. Hitler ordered books burned, and among them was Darwin's Origin of Species. Stalin threw geneticists into gulags and even in front of executioners for studying modern synthesis. You repeatedly spam death threats where you want to do the same. You have more in common with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao than any atheist I know.

I feel sorry for your parents, that they did not manage to educate you correctly about Jesus our Lord and Saviour, but perhaps they wanted you to be condemend to hell, who knows, perhaps they saw what a disgusting vile creature you where and let you become what you truly are, an Atheist Nazi commie wanting to Destroy America.f

Wow, talk about stupid. Get off your god complex. You are not omnipotent. Just because you can make up stories about how atheists come to be doesn't mean that the universe obeys your wishes and makes it so.

Read the main post. I left the church because the people there were being soft on torture, slavery, genocide, and, by extension, soft on Naziism. Heck, in High School, I wrote an article about my last Sunday School teacher calling him a "Sugar-coated Nazi."

It was my hatred for people like the Nazis that made me reject your kind of church. My parents eventually followed me. We're all against fundies because we can't go a day without hearing some story about them speaking out in favor of horrible, horrible things and invoking cultural relativism and postmodernism to defend their evil and double-standards.

I'm a patriot, which is why I want to correct the government. Of course, you're the sort of flag waver who'll say that if the president says torturing prisoners and holding them indefinitely without trial is okay, you'll argue that cultural relativism demands that I accept it.

Pardon me for having high moral standards instead of none. The doctrine of Hell requires a permissive attitude towards torture. I can't tolerate that.

Bronze Dog said...

Oh, yeah: Fun fact: The only person I can recall ever speaking in favor of Hitler on my blog was Gabriel, a racist troll who revealed his Christianity by trying to make us hate Jews by calling them "Christ-killers."

Boy, was he barking up the wrong tree.

Of course, a great deal of our arguments involved informing him that anecdotes are poor evidence, that DNA doesn't work the way he and Hitler thought it did, and to define "race."

Racists always end up sputtering uselessly when they're confronted by a person like me who rejects their outmoded Christianized concept of heredity because I paid attention in 7th grade biology: You can't "dilute" genetic traits by cross-breeding.

Of course, Stalin would execute me for arguing that genes exist.

Ryan W. said...

What exactly is "Atheist Dogma [sic]" Markuze/Mabus/Other Sock Puppet?

Is it that we don't accept your god/gods based solely on the fact you say they are there?

Give us a reason to believe in supernatural deities and we'll examine them. Spouting hatred, nonsense and spelling errors is more akin to standing in a shopping mall screaming "I'm fucking nuts!!!"

Anonymous said...

I am Gabriel, but insulting me when not knowing I am here is not surprising, you are an atheist and thats how you work.

Atheist Dogma? Dont ask me, you are an atheist, follow Stalin or Hitler? Nazism and Mao are your heros, so something like that, yes?

As much killing as possible, thats what you usually do, historically, but you will ignore history of course.


Ypu dream of a world with atheism, you want a new Soviet Union, but people like ME will stop you, people like me, True Brave Americans will stand in your way making a good world preventing Neo Nazi Commies destroying your world. And I dont know if you insult your parents, it would be sad if they are nazis as well, I will HOPE you simple wanted to become the evil you are and hate god and your nation, lets prey they love you and not make you a stupiud atheist.

They probably cry as we speak, sad indeed.

MWchase said...

insulting me when not knowing I am here is not surprising

Okay, be honest. Would we speak any differently to your face, as it were? The only difference I can think of is second-person vs third-person.

Gabe, you brought up the "dogma" (" 'dogma' "), you explain what the hell it is.

While you're at it, explain how Germany's industrialization differed from the adoption of electronics in Asia, reconcile the differences between your ideas about heredity and the findings of Gregor Mendel and subsequent researchers, cite actual references to show that Hitler was even an atheist (regardless: the MO of an Atheist Monster is to manipulate millions of christians into doing his bidding?), and be able to explain the differences between Lysenkoism and the Modern Synthesis, both from a scientific and political perspective.

Anyone want to pile on a few more canards he's used?

Don said...

Dear Gabriel,

You are a pussy bitch. Posturing on the internet does not make you look tough. Go blow a goat.

Sincerely,

Everyone

Bronze Dog said...

Oh, fun. Gabriel returns.

I am Gabriel, but insulting me when not knowing I am here is not surprising, you are an atheist and thats how you work.

How exactly were those comments any different than the sorts I said directly to your metaphorical face?

Oh, and the insults should be the least important thing for you to respond to. Try coming up with a coherent defense for your beliefs. Heck, you've had a hard enough time coming up with a coherent statement of your beliefs.

Atheist Dogma? Dont ask me, you are an atheist, follow Stalin or Hitler? Nazism and Mao are your heros, so something like that, yes?

1. There is no atheist dogma. Really, the only defining belief of atheism is essentially this: Theists have not presented convincing evidence for the existence of gods.

2. Stalin, Mao, and Hitler were villains because they were totalitarians, anti-science, and ordered mass murders. Try reading what I posted earlier. I'm pretty sure all three would want me dead.

3. Your standard science-minded atheist is diametrically opposed to those three. Science has a strong anti-authoritarian streak built into its philosophy. Not that you would know anything about science.

As much killing as possible, thats what you usually do, historically, but you will ignore history of course.

Standard issue black-and-white thinking. You seem to think that having one trivial commonality makes me anything like Stalin or Mao, despite the fact that my politics are nearly opposite. Should I start comparing you to baby-eating Satanists because Christians also believe in the existence of Satan?

Oh, and try reading some history about Christian genocide. Heck, read the Bible.

Ypu dream of a world with atheism, you want a new Soviet Union, but people like ME will stop you, people like me, True Brave Americans will stand in your way making a good world preventing Neo Nazi Commies destroying your world. And I dont know if you insult your parents, it would be sad if they are nazis as well, I will HOPE you simple wanted to become the evil you are and hate god and your nation, lets prey they love you and not make you a stupiud atheist.

They probably cry as we speak, sad indeed.


Funny, I seem to recall you worshiping Hitler, and complaining that our genetics arguments against you were invalid because we were obviously jealous of Hitler's intelligence, and that reality is based on Bronze Dog's emotional state. Get over your fetish.

Of course, it's no surprise to me that a theist will wiffle-waffle on the morality of eugenics. Divine Command Theory of ethics is essentially a belief that morality is random.

You'll never find me speaking in favor of Hitler's style of eugenics: It's both immoral and stupid.

Oh, and since you never bothered to read my comments, just skim for key words: My parents are proud of me, and they're now atheists, themselves. Try reading the main post about the moral boundaries I refused to cross.

Ryan W. said...

Gabriel said:

In any case you are quite sad indeed, promoting your Atheism "dogma" and continue to pretend that Atheism is good...

then:

Atheist Dogma? Dont ask me, you are an atheist,

If you don't know what it is, how can you say it's not "good"? You seem to be against something you claim to know nothing about. I don't even know what fallacious argument that falls under. Stupidity, maybe?

gmcevoy said...

Why is it that history for godbots seems to begin POST WW1?

All the gnashing over millions killed in the 20th Century, but never a mention of WW1.

Even the more reasonable bots consistently do the same as they also avoid the very Christian nature of Godwin's Children of the Night

Bronze Dog said...

It's funny that despite technically being a moral relativist under some definitions, my moral boundaries (as well as those of my readers) seem to be far more absolute than those of the wishy-washy theists who claim to have a direct pipeline to objective morality.

In fact, from my experience, the only theists who have similarly firm moral standards are those who seem to believe that god is a secular humanist.

djfav said...

Anony sez: "I am Gabriel..." Full stop. How to put this as politely as possible...

NOBODY GIVES A FUCK!

An anonymous troll is an anonymous toll is an anonymous troll.

Go fuck yourself, whoever the fuck you are.

Anonymous said...

Well atleast your blog becasme aliver again thanks to me. You could say because of me you are not a lonely loser anymore Bronze.

As your pathetic religious atheist have nothing to say of importance and cant defend their position of none-belief, which they believe so religiously in spite of all evidence, I will go as "you want me to" (of course, after I got your blog to wake up again and you got some friends to talk to, you say that).

To bad you are ot afraid to debate, dont have the intelligence/skill, I am fine with that, its good you know your limits as I already whopped your arse so many times, but still, it would have been good for you to learn about the world.

God Bless America and Let God Protect the World and its People

Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

Gabriel:

Well atleast your blog becasme aliver again thanks to me. You could say because of me you are not a lonely loser anymore Bronze.

Riiiiight, Mr. Evasive. Because my blog is the center of my life because I never, ever step away from my laptop.

Why do you even bother with this stupid ad hominem? Do you seriously think the nature of population genetics changes just because I don't feel like blogging? Do you really assign that much power to me?

Do you ever listen to yourself?

As your pathetic religious atheist have nothing to say of importance and cant defend their position of none-belief, which they believe so religiously in spite of all evidence, I will go as "you want me to" (of course, after I got your blog to wake up again and you got some friends to talk to, you say that).

Fallacy: Shifting the burden of proof.

The question isn't why we don't believe in gods, the question is why do you? Theists have no good evidence.

To bad you are ot afraid to debate, dont have the intelligence/skill, I am fine with that, its good you know your limits as I already whopped your arse so many times, but still, it would have been good for you to learn about the world.

HA! HA! HA! You're rewriting history.

You couldn't even define what you believed despite us putting pressure on the question for months. Tell us, Gabriel, what does "white" mean?

You tried to claim that your anecdotes are superior to objectively recorded genetic data and we gave you the standard treatment we give all the anecdotalist woos. I even pointed out that if I abandoned logic and the scientific method in favor of your anecdotalism, I'd have to believe in a LOT of absurdities, like homeopathy, bigfoot, alien abductions, and so on. All you did in reply to that was to stammer, sputter, and change the subject to irrelevancies like my personal life.

You also deflected any effort on our part to get scientific data by trying and failing to turn this into a penis fencing duel between you and me on "authority." Sorry, Gabe, but I have to inform you again, that I'm not asserting personal authority, I was borrowing the "authority" of scientific consensus on the discrete nature of genetics while you were trying to claim personal godhood because you have frequent flier miles.

That's just a few reasons why I argued that you were losing to "I don't know" in the debate.

Ryan W. said...

Oh dear Jesus TF'n Christ. I think I missed this guy the first time 'round, so lemme take a crack at him.

Well atleast your blog becasme aliver again thanks to me.

If that sentence is spelled and structured that way due to English being a distant second or third language, I blame the fact you don't realize how silly it is. If English is your first language, I blame the homeschooling.

You could say because of me you are not a lonely loser anymore Bronze.

1. A blog's quality is not defined by how many comments are left.
2. A blogger's social life is not defined by how many how many presumptuous assholes drop by to comment on it.

As your pathetic religious atheist have nothing to say of importance...

Regarding what? And thanks for not capitalizing "atheist".

...and cant defend their position of none-belief,

I almost like your grammar error there, because it's a very good descriptor. How does one defend "nothing"? If I pointed to a corner and told you there was a unicorn there, how would you convince me otherwise?

which they believe so religiously in spite of all evidence,

I'm going to wager you've been asked for this evidence before and either

a) neglected to provide it or

b) gave some sort of silly answer based on circular reasoning and other various fallacious fine-tuned universe arguments or arguments from ignorance.

Gabriel ruffles his feathers, not realizing that debates are won by a preponderance of evidence, presenting strong arguments and pointing out the fallacious thinking in one's opponents arguments rather than simply annoying said opponent.

In other words, get over yourself; being a dickhole isn't going to sway anyone with half a brain.

Anonymous said...

God Bless America and Let God Protect the World and its People

With Hurricanes and Earthquakes and Plagues and Starvation and Tonados and Locusts and Wars and Volcanos and Zombies and droughts and...

Bronze Dog said...

Heh. Whoever was that last anony, post your name. We've already have two alleged different people who don't bother to use the "Name/URL" option when they post.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it interesting Bronzie how you are always right and us, what is it you call us, "trolls"? Are bad. You deny the existence of God but believe in Trolls? Ironic indeed.

Tell me, you have no problems celebrating Christmas or other religious Holidays, but you condemn religion as EeeeeeVVvviiiiiilllll.... Yet, we are the most giving and loving people on the planet, where do you think 99% of the Charities come from? Yeah, thats right. And whiles Communist where murdering Christians for being Loving and Caring Atheist where living in the backwaters.

Perhaps its time to come back to Reality instead of living in some Internet Fantasy. Or is the world to scary? Let me guess, you do not go outside your world of D&D because, Let me make a small guess, BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU OHOOHOHOHHOH..

Pathetic.

Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

Gabriel brings more stupid:

Isn't it interesting Bronzie how you are always right and us, what is it you call us, "trolls"? Are bad. You deny the existence of God but believe in Trolls? Ironic indeed.

Man, are you stupid, and here's why. Some words have more than one definition, you know.

"Troll" can mean either a mythological creature or a variety of annoying person on the internet.

Just because I call you the internet variety of troll does not mean that I believe in the mythological creature.

Do I need to draw a diagram?

Tell me, you have no problems celebrating Christmas or other religious Holidays, but you condemn religion as EeeeeeVVvviiiiiilllll.... Yet, we are the most giving and loving people on the planet, where do you think 99% of the Charities come from? Yeah, thats right. And whiles Communist where murdering Christians for being Loving and Caring Atheist where living in the backwaters.

You don't even have the slightest idea what my position on the issue is, do you? Of course, it's standard issue for Gabriel to get spastic whenever he meets someone who refuses to go by his script.

There are reasonable Christians who live by mostly secular morality, and then there are radical fundamentalists who fall under the Cult of Permissiveness I describe.

As I said before, I'd also be thrown in the gulags or executed by the old Communists for daring to believe in genetics.

The reason Stalinist/Maoist governments are bad: They use authoritarianism as an excuse to brutalize anyone who dares question their authority. Stalin and Mao were no different than, say, the Spanish Inquisition. Did you sleep through history class?

As a science-minded person, I inherently reject authority when it comes to determining the truth. Authority exists only as a time-saving measure.


Perhaps its time to come back to Reality instead of living in some Internet Fantasy. Or is the world to scary? Let me guess, you do not go outside your world of D&D because, Let me make a small guess, BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU OHOOHOHOHHOH..

Pathetic.

Gabriel


It's funny to hear that from you. I consider you arrogantly and dangerously naive about how the world works. You live in a world of cartoon melodrama and TV sitcom stereotypes.

It's not surprising you threw so many hissy fits in the past when I gave answers you didn't write for me.

Wifi13 said...

I agree with the blogger on so many levels, but why all the bitterness and attitude?
Would it not be more appropriate and mature to leave out all the "grade school" bickering, and to employ a more evolved method of releasing your pent-up frustrations regarding this loathsome society we now find ourselves surrounded by?
Give in to the love, what's left of it, not the hate.

Bronze Dog said...

There's just one problem with that: There's no one answer to changing people's minds. There is no single magical technique that will sway absolutely everyone.

I get angry because I care, and it was angry people who shook me out of apathy. I was able to start thinking about these things because caring, passionate people got angry about injustice and brought attention to the matter.

I know anger doesn't always work, but neither does stoicism. Remaining calm and vulcan-like can all too easily ends up giving an air of legitimacy to the absurdities you argue against. Sometimes a big belly laugh and one refutation does more than a thousand calmly stated refutations.

I'm not against civility, I'm against crippling overspecialization. If you can do your thing stoically, go right ahead. You'll cover some people and I'll cover others.

I prefer anger a lot of the time because I tend to see constructive uses for it. People who used anger and reason together convinced me, so I seek to emulate them.

Bronze Dog said...

(For some reason I can't see the comment on the blog, just the notification sent to me. Not like I'm leaving anything out.)

Gabe continues with the straw men:

You live in your Commie Atheist world...

Except I'm not a Communist. Kind of interesting that you flip-flop on whether Communism is good, since you told me to look up to the mixed economy of Sweden, claiming it was good Communism.

Sorry, but I think Communism failed. It failed as an economy, and Communist science failed utterly at biology. Look up Trofim Lysenko.

I favor regulated capitalism with some social programs designed to provide equality of opportunity. You know, the American Dream: Poor guy gets an education, works hard, and strikes it rich.

...where you can run around doing whatever you want, sleep with whoever you want, boys, chidlren animals, You should have that RIGHT, the Atheism Dreams.

Except for, you know, MORALITY. Why do you think we're so tremendously outraged by systematic child rapes that have been going on, supported, and covered up by the Catholic church?

Rape is wrong. Period. I don't need any random magic man in the sky to tell me that. Do you seriously have no built-in sense of decency, Gabe? Do you really need some magic man who randomly formed out of nothing to roll the dice and randomly decide morality?

I will not be surprised if you start spewing apologia over Catholic rape, claiming that it isn't the least bit important.

Continue being afraid of the real world, I know you hate having me here mentioning the real world to you, you feel so stupid and small everytime I point out your ignorance of the world so you do everything to insult me so I leave, Ignorance is the Atheist Best Friend.

World of Warcraft isn't real, Gabe. TV Sitcoms are not real, Gabe. Hollywood productions are not real, Gabe. Stop acting as if the real world was a movie.

Ryan W. said...

Wifi13

Search any of the blogs listed at right for "DBAD" or "Don't be a dick" for why we get fucking pissed at these assheads.

Start with Tom Foss's blog.

And of course BD's reply to your comment.

Ryan W. said...

BD:

I've noticed that, to the crazy right-wing "we say we hate spending but really just don't like a black president" Tea Party, anyone who isn't a gun-toting, Palin in '012 redneck is, in fact, a Commie.

Much like I'm a Bill O'Reilly fanatic to the not-so-smart Liberal crowd.

Anonymous said...

What a surprise Bronzie, you REMOVE the posts and cant even admit it, "oh no its the magic duckman".

Pathetic once again, you actually amaze me with your weakness.

If you noticed, the only defence anyone have to their own ignorance/stupidity/anti-patriotism, is that the other guy, that is, "me", is "stupid" and "crazy", because pointing out the truth makes you crazy, and if it makes you look stupid, which it does being that liberals are some of the most ignorant people on the planet, its very very ironic.

If you cant handle that I am more intelligent then you, just STFU, but you know what? I think you will look for a spelling error and then mention that, because thats the only think you could do, OH LOOK A WORD IS SPELLED WRONG, ignore all other, Point to that and continue Hail Communism.

Fucking morons, and pointing out that that nigger obama is destroying our nation is hardly racist, its Truth. Our nation never been in such a bad state and surprise surprise, we got a BLACK president when its happening, perhaps thats the same reason all does blacks on the street robbing, murdering and raping is doing it, Could it be NATURAL for them rather then getting a job and education?

No, then you become a racist, just like you are a child-molester if you point out that the world is NOT FLAT, or that you are a murderer if you Give money to a Church or Fanatic because you want a better world?

Because thats how you work, isnt it? If I point out the niggers in our nation not working, criminal gangs and destroying, you call me a RACIST then facing the issue, because you need something to avoid the issue.

Liberal Commie ignorants, thats what you are, but you going to remove this post aren't you, Truth is not for your blog, just say it "didn't come up" and magical went away, perhaps it was the LochNess monster, you believe in that don't you?

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe, again:


What a surprise Bronzie, you REMOVE the posts and cant even admit it, "oh no its the magic duckman".

Pathetic once again, you actually amaze me with your weakness.


No, it's blog glitch. You have a rather bloated sense of ego if you think you're so "dangerous" to me that I'd delete a comment of yours. And if I did delete it, why the hell would I quote it all in a response?

THINK for once in your life.

I've had the same thing happen to commercial spam comments: I'd get an email notification quoting the comment, but it wouldn't show up on the blog.

If you noticed, the only defence anyone have to their own ignorance/stupidity/anti-patriotism, is that the other guy, that is, "me", is "stupid" and "crazy", because pointing out the truth makes you crazy, and if it makes you look stupid, which it does being that liberals are some of the most ignorant people on the planet, its very very ironic.

Except that for months I pointed out the logical fallacies you employ, the weaknesses of the anecdotalist epistemology, the role of nurture in human development, how genetics really works, and so on.

Every time I do, you show your desperation by changing the subject to me, personally. Gabe, this isn't some clash of two titans. This is you against scientific consensus, and I'm just a tiny, unimportant blogger who pays attention to science.

If you cant handle that I am more intelligent then you, just STFU, but you know what? I think you will look for a spelling error and then mention that, because thats the only think you could do, OH LOOK A WORD IS SPELLED WRONG, ignore all other, Point to that and continue Hail Communism.

Intelligence is irrelevant. Intelligent people aren't immune to logical fallacies: They make up for cognitive dissonance by making up more elaborate rationalizations.

And if anyone hailed Communism, it was you. Certainly not me.

Fucking morons, and pointing out that that nigger obama is destroying our nation is hardly racist, its Truth.

What planet have you been on? Of course he's destroying the nation by continuing the corrupt practices of George Bush: Warrantless wiretaps, CIA black sites, torture, abusing the state's secrets privilege, and probably more authoritarian nastiness I'm not yet aware of.

Are you going to throw another hissy fit because I've gone off script and thought things you didn't write?

Our nation never been in such a bad state and surprise surprise, we got a BLACK president when its happening, perhaps thats the same reason all does blacks on the street robbing, murdering and raping is doing it, Could it be NATURAL for them rather then getting a job and education?

1. Funny how you don't mention the start of the decline since Bush got elected.

2. Correlation equals causation fallacy. Just because two things happen at the same time does not mean that they are related.

3. If it's "natural" for blacks, (a term you're too scared to even define, for fear that we might be able to use it against you), why was there a continuing downward trend in crime?

4. Didn't they say the same thing about the Irish when they were the big immigration fear?

Bronze Dog said...

(Continued)

No, then you become a racist, just like you are a child-molester if you point out that the world is NOT FLAT, or that you are a murderer if you Give money to a Church or Fanatic because you want a better world?

Obviously you don't read what I post. The virtue of giving money to a church varies with the church's behavior. If the church is very charitable with the money it receives it's generally a net good. If the church uses its money to gold-plate the pastor's house, it's stupid. If it's used to fund a terrorist act, then you may have been an unintentional accomplice to murder.

Is that so hard to understand?

As for wanting to make the world a better place, the question is HOW? Whenever we asked you what actions you would take, you chickened out. When I suggested we apply the meritocratic aspects of capitalism to sort out talented individuals, you fell silent.

Because thats how you work, isnt it? If I point out the niggers in our nation not working, criminal gangs and destroying, you call me a RACIST then facing the issue, because you need something to avoid the issue.

Idiot. You've already met your quota at the straw man factory.

I call you a racist because you think genetics causes that, even though you have no basis for claiming that beyond anecdotalism, the lazy man's epistemology.

"Hey, diploma mill doctor! You think we run this drug through a rigorous placebo-controlled clinical trial?"

"No, I think we'll just sell it to some gullible people and post cherry-picked testimonials on our website."

How's that any different from you, when we asked for genetic data?

Liberal Commie ignorants, thats what you are, but you going to remove this post aren't you, Truth is not for your blog, just say it "didn't come up" and magical went away, perhaps it was the LochNess monster, you believe in that don't you?

Of course I don't believe in the Loch Ness monster. The lake can't support an entire species of giant creatures like that without highly visible effects, and fuzzy photos don't prove anything.

And apparently you labor under the delusion that computers never ever make mistakes because that Star Trek lawyer said so.

Again, why would I delete it and bring attention to it, quoting it in my reply?

Anonymous said...

Obama is responsible for the current lieu, simple as that, you can't nor have any right to blame it on OTHERS such as post presidents, we are HERE and NOW, stop blaming it on past presidents and realize that the negro in office could end it tomorrow, but he DOESN'T meaning that he supports it and what he is is part of it.


I am to "afraid" to tell you and define things? Fine, start a topic and I answer any questions I can answer, no problem at all, as long as you make it Fair rather then an ATTACK on me where you censor Gabes responses.

Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

Obama is responsible for the current lieu, simple as that, you can't nor have any right to blame it on OTHERS such as post presidents, we are HERE and NOW, stop blaming it on past presidents and realize that the negro in office could end it tomorrow, but he DOESN'T meaning that he supports it and what he is is part of it.

Where did you get the delusion that I considered Obama blameless? Bush started it, and Obama continued it. They're both evil. They both commit the same crimes. Therefore I treat them with the same contempt for those crimes. Heck, if anything I might treat Obama with more contempt because he refused to investigate Bush's share of the crime shortly after getting into office.

There's absolutely no need to even bring race into that.

I am to "afraid" to tell you and define things? Fine, start a topic and I answer any questions I can answer, no problem at all, as long as you make it Fair rather then an ATTACK on me where you censor Gabes responses.

Gabriel


Finally, you show the tiniest inkling of commitment.

Provide genetic data demonstrating some form of neurological development problem that is widespread (say, over 50%) among "blacks." It must be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, more recent than 1990.

And just for fun: Search my blog and see if you can find a single instance of me endorsing Communism.

For either of the above, you MUST provide a hotlink, or if the journal isn't accessible online, a citation so that I can potentially look it up at the public library.

Ryan W. said...

Just delete every comment he makes until he answers the question. Force him to debate fairly.

Bronze Dog said...

Mmm... Nah. I'm looking at this as an opportunity to get back onto Doggerel, since you know he'll start pulling excuses. Heck, I've been wanting to do "The PC Police!" for a while, and that's one card he'll definitely play.

Anonymous said...

Here you go, from Wikipedia: The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and academic research since the inception of intelligence testing in the early 20th century, particularly in the United States. Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests performed in the US have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation between different racial groups, with the average score of the African American population being significantly lower

http://www.psych.illinois.edu/~broberts/Neisser%20et%20al,%201996,%20intelligence.pdf

http://dx.doi.org/10.1037%2F0003-066X.51.2.77


And its clear, in any case, reading your other "readers", what kind of limits and fear they have, REMOVE my posts? Pathetic individuals indeed, they know nothing and refer to others like Dawkins and other Commie Atheist and dont even know anything about evolution or the big bang but yet promote it and a Godless world, all for their little lives to do anything they want.

Pathetic and Tragic, and afraid of course.

Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

After a year of evasiveness, this is what Gabe comes up with.

Failtastic. I said genetic data. IQ tests do not measure or evaluate genes.

You really have no idea what my position on the issue is, do you?

Oh, and you might want to actually read some of the paper:

Our discussion of these questions implicates both genetic factors (Section 3) and environmental factors (Section 4).

Emphasis mine.

From Section 3:
In theory, different subgroups of a population might have different distributions of environments or genes and hence different values of h 2. This seems not to be the case for high and low IQ levels, for which adult heritabilities appear to be much the same (Saudino, Plomin, Pedersen, & McClearn, 1994). It is also possible that an impoverished or suppressive environment could fail to support the development of a trait, and hence restrict individual variation. This could affect estimates of h 2, c 2, or both, depending on the details of the process. Again (as in the
case of whole populations), an environmental factor that affected every member of a subgroup equally might alter the group's mean without affecting heritabilities at all.


From what I'm reading here, genetics are a possible cause, but the experiment's limitations can't rule out whether lower IQ scores are being caused by genetics or the environment.

Ooooo! Here's something funny: The article finds a way to express one of my opinions that you had been oddly silent about:

Group means have no direct implications for individuals. What matters for the next person you meet (to the extent that test scores matter at all) is that person's own particular score, not the mean of some reference group to which he or she happens to belong. The commitment to evaluate
people on their own individual merit is central to a democratic
society.


And here's another bit:

It also makes quantitative sense. The distributions
of different groups inevitably overlap, with the
range of scores within any one group always wider than
the mean differences between any two groups. In the case
of intelligence test scores, the variance attributable to individual
differences far exceeds the variance related to
group membership (Jensen, 1980).


Even if you did pull up a study that focused specifically on genetics, it's looking pretty small if this is the sort of thing you get when environmental factors still affect things.

It gets better:

Besides European Americans ("Whites"), the ethnic groups to be considered are Chinese and Japanese Americans, Hispanic Americans ("Latinos"), Native Americans ("Indians"), and African Americans ("Blacks"). These groups (we avoid the term "race") are defined and selfdefined by social conventions based on ethnic origin as well as on observable physical characteristics such as skin color. None of them are internally homogeneous.

In other words, the definition isn't based on common DNA, but very indirect measures.

So, Gabe, where exactly in there is your epic victory? I must have missed it.

Anonymous said...

Of course you are right Bronze, thats why Blacks are the wealthiest and most intelligent group in United States of America...

No wait.. They are the poorest most backwards... Oh jolly darn...


The truth is that niggers are backwards, you can GO OUT and visit the local ghetto if you do not "believe me" (as you deny this), but you know what, I dont think you would go there in fear of your life, and irony comes back as always. IF these niggers are so equal to us, why would you have a problem going down to the local negro ghetto?

The Truth, if you want to face it, is that the White Man built the most advanced and powerful nation on the planet, United States Of America, and with Gods Help we will overcome the Evils that people like you want to spread, be it Atheism, Communism or Facism.


If you knew ANYTHING, you would also know WE, the White Man, Americans, where the ones HELPING others to become good as well, just as the WHITE ENGLISH did to THEIR colonies. If you look at Singapore, you will notice they can Read and Write just like White men after the English Advanced them JUST AS WE did to the JAPANESE, THANKS TO US they can feed themselves.


And then you have the bad examples, be it Mexico or other shit nations in South America, or Indonesia and Muslims backwaters that either gotten Help then threw it away, or did not want it and Killed anyone trying to Help them. Seen North Korea lately? And then had a glance at the WESTERNIZED WHITENED South Korea?

But these things you probably dont know about, you never travelled nor does it suit your worldview does it?

Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

Gabriel melts down and puts the straw man factory into overdrive to cover up his failure:

Of course you are right Bronze, thats why Blacks are the wealthiest and most intelligent group in United States of America...

No wait.. They are the poorest most backwards... Oh jolly darn...


I never suggested any such thing. It doesn't even defy my expectations that they have lower IQ scores. That first link of yours didn't show me anything even surprising. You don't even know what I'm even asking for you to prove.

The truth is that niggers are backwards, you can GO OUT and visit the local ghetto if you do not "believe me" (as you deny this), but you know what, I dont think you would go there in fear of your life, and irony comes back as always. IF these niggers are so equal to us, why would you have a problem going down to the local negro ghetto?

What proof do you have that it's genetics, and not environmental factors? You know, like poverty?

Poverty often causes crime. That's why I would be biased against going into slums, regardless of what race lives in there.

The Truth, if you want to face it, is that the White Man built the most advanced and powerful nation on the planet, United States Of America, and with Gods Help we will overcome the Evils that people like you want to spread, be it Atheism, Communism or Facism.

And yet you can't even define "white." And yeah, the people who played the biggest role in establishing this nation just so happened to be light-skinned. What makes you think this correlation is more than just historical accident?


If you knew ANYTHING, you would also know WE, the White Man, Americans, where the ones HELPING others to become good as well, just as the WHITE ENGLISH did to THEIR colonies. If you look at Singapore, you will notice they can Read and Write just like White men after the English Advanced them JUST AS WE did to the JAPANESE, THANKS TO US they can feed themselves.


And you have yet to show me how their "whiteness" contributed to those advancements. You can't even use genetics, since that fluffy paper you threw up didn't use genetics to define who gets into a "race". Are we dealing with science and measurable entities like DNA, or with fantastical Platonic eidolons?

But these things you probably dont know about, you never travelled nor does it suit your worldview does it?

Right. Because the inherent selection biases and subjectivity of anecdotalism completely and utterly pwns statistical analysis and objective measurement.

Let me guess, when you get sick, you don't rely on a doctor who reads medical journals, you just throw some random herbs together to find what "works."

It's also funny that you rail against capitalism's meritocratic side. If individual talent and hard work shouldn't determine success, what should?

Anonymous said...

I see, you think it is RANDOM that, say, WHITE MAN is responsible for the progress of JApan, South Korea, Malaysia and so on?

And that i White Man did not exist, they would have been Just like they are today (western, advanced), correct? Just make it clear here so I know, Japan would be THE SAME if Americans did not Help Japan?

Its just a coincidence, right? Because if it, that means White man IS responsible for the good, which is completely the OPPOSITE of your hints and claims that its just a "coincidence" that White Man made good, Africans could have gone to Japan, Same result, correct?

Correct?.... Hello? Correct, right?

Bronze Dog said...

How many times to I have to answer these simple questions? We all know you're going to ignore my answers, anyway.

I see, you think it is RANDOM that, say, WHITE MAN is responsible for the progress of JApan, South Korea, Malaysia and so on?

I can't say for certain, since even you don't seem to know what "white" means, but I'll play along:

It's not completely random. It's based off of factors of climate, geology, and such. Arable land, mineral resources, coast lines, and so forth, just happened to be located in Europe, which made it easier to form farmland, and thus a sedentary lifestyle, trade routes by ship, and so forth. It's merely coincidence that the climate also happened to select in favor of light skin to prevent vitamin D deficiency from the lower levels of direct sun.

Unless you intend to suggest something along the lines of "white skin fertilizes soil", I see no reason why whiteness would cause a region to become more conducive to civilization.

Its just a coincidence, right? Because if it, that means White man IS responsible for the good, which is completely the OPPOSITE of your hints and claims that its just a "coincidence" that White Man made good, Africans could have gone to Japan, Same result, correct?

If humans never traveled to Europe to evolve "white" skin, AND if Africa had more arable soil, some means of making travel easier (more rivers, more coastlines, etcetera), then they would have been more likely to develop longer-lasting nations and advance through trade. Since I can't simulate an entire civilization in my head, I wouldn't be able to predict exactly how advanced they would be compared to today.

Though now that I think about it, if Africa's environment was changed the way I describe, civilization would likely have had a chance to get started sooner.

And no, silly, it wouldn't be like one of those parallel worlds on TV, where everything's the same except for one detail. Humans and civilizations are complex phenomena, and the "butterfly effect" would make specific predictions much, much more difficult.

Don said...

Look, you silly bugger: "Western" and "advanced" are not synonyms. Just because you happen to like your current circumstances more does not mean they are better, objectively and absolutely, than the status of other cultures at other places and points in time. Cultures do not "evolve" or "advance" from a state of barbarism to a state of civilization; certain cultures become more complex over time while others do not, due in some large part to the factors listed by BD above me. Just because Japan likely wouldn't be exactly as it is now if "white" folk hadn't gone in and "civilized" then doesn't mean they'd be worse for it. You can't say that partially because you can't know what would have happened and partially because your standard for "better" or "worse" is "my culture that I was raised in and think is the best." And seriously, who, other than lame otaku and hardcore Ren Faire geeks, don't prefer their own culture over others? That doesn't make it better.

Moreover, let's list things that came to "white people," widely conceived as "Western European" from the "brown people" of the Near and Middle East. Ahem.

*Writing
*Agriculture
*Metallurgy
*Architectural techniques including city-building and monoloithic construction
*Mathematics
*Governing and accounting techniques

And those are just the really big ones.

That same list works under a different title: "Things non-white cultures on different continents came up with independently." So not only were "white people" far from the first to come up with the basics of complex society, they never came up with it independently, unlike the "yellow" and "brown people" of other continents.

Crack a fucking anthropology book, you piece of shit. Hell, read Shogun.

Bronze Dog said...

"Oh, yeah! A katana could cut through a TANK!"

Man, I hate those sorts of Japanophiles. I like anime overall (of course, there's a lot of crap mixed in there with the gems) but I don't live in that fantasy world, as much as Gabe wishes I did. Hobbies are hobbies. Gabriel's depiction of me is pulled straight from a TV Sitcom that gets preachy about how New Media Are Evil.

Anyway, I thought I'd make something I've been saying more slogan-worthy:

So what?

Part of the problem, Gabe, is that even if I accepted this bizarre notion that blacks had some hereditary inferiority that's somehow not in their DNA... So what?

I believe Don/Akusai challenged you once or twice to tell us what you would have us do differently if you did manage to convince us.

You never answered the question.

You're putting up a lot of fuss for something that won't have an impact on how we make decisions in our lives. The only reason I'm not yawning you off the blog is because I find your meltdowns amusing right now, and I like pointing out logical fallacies.

Anonymous said...

So what?

Part of the problem, Gabe, is that even if I accepted this bizarre notion that blacks had some hereditary inferiority that's somehow not in their DNA... So what?


Sweet mother and... Holy Shit.

Here you been sitting and aggressively been saying that Blacks are not inferior, and NOW you say "So What"?... Absolutely gorgeous, and the sad thing is that none of your sheep followers would see it either as that would mean to question their master.

Wow, Bronze.. WOW.

Don said...

I definitely went through a "mystical Eastern" period late in high school/early in college. I tried to teach myself Japanese, I watched a lot of anime, I pretended that I found Buddhism fascinating, and I studied a Japanese martial art. Of all of the above, the only thing I regret was pretending to find Buddhism fascinating. I also regret a weak but definite feeling that "The East is cooler." Eventually I realized that I was American and that was just fine, and that I thought lots of aspects of Japanese culture were very weird. They are, in other words, just people like the rest of us.

I, too, love anime, though I definitely agree that more than a little of it is utter crap. I haven't watched much in the last few years mostly because I'm having a hard time finding anything good that I haven't already seen. Back when my old roommate Sean and I would have anime nights every Tuesday we'd watch about four DVDs a week of various series and keep track of it on a whiteboard for logistics purposes (before the whiteboard we accidentally rented discs we had seen before) and bragging rights. I once did the math and clocked us at about 1200 hours of anime and we watched lots subsequent.

Unfortunately, that doesn't leave much else that isn't about teenage girls or collecting cards or guys who turn into chicks when [insert random thing] happens. I've watched my way through almost everything I consider worth watching.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe displays his lack of self-awareness:

Sweet mother and... Holy Shit.

Here you been sitting and aggressively been saying that Blacks are not inferior, and NOW you say "So What"?... Absolutely gorgeous, and the sad thing is that none of your sheep followers would see it either as that would mean to question their master.

Wow, Bronze.. WOW.


Aggressively? Please. You really have no idea what's going on here, do you? Haven't you noticed how much I've cooled off since you drifted back to the topic of race? If your opponent is getting calmer as the argument goes on, that's usually a sign that you're doing something wrong.

For one thing the facts you claim I deny are things that I DON'T deny. Yes, blacks have lower IQ scores on average. Yes, many African nations are war-torn hellholes. I find this knowledge unsurprising, and even expected according to the various tidbits I know about social and economic issues just by paying attention to the world around me.

If your spastic episodes weren't so entertaining, I'd be bored. Your "shocking" truths are just that insipid.

You're so trapped in your fantasy of the "everyone is equally special" hippie teacher, that you don't even know what I, a real person, am disagreeing with you about. You don't know what I believe, therefore you make up whatever strokes your ego.

And that makes the whole thing so hilarious. Is it any wonder you act like someone who lives in front of a television set? Don't sit so close, you'll get eye strain.

---

I notice you didn't actually answer the question. How exactly is my decision-making supposed to change if I bought into your fantasy eidolon hypothesis?

MWchase said...

Yeah, what Bronze was doing was just like the time I asked... that guy, forget his name, some apologist, what the actual implications of the existence of God were. What's one thing that would be different compared to the situation of non-existence. (Apparently, if you accept the Ontological Argument, that question is logically incoherent by one of the intermediate steps. How conveeeeeeeenient.)

Anyway, back to what you've said. You've got nothing new, and you back down every time we ask for stuff like... definitions. You know, you're really handicapping yourself by doing that. How do you expect to convince us to hold a position, if you won't clarify what terms vital to that position mean?

(Random tangent: it's sort of like the question "do you want us to win in Iraq?". Perhaps we simply didn't advance our soldiers far enough through slightly s-shaped streets, with a couple arbitrary physics puzzles thrown in their path?)

If I understand rightly, your position is something like...

"White people developed the best of everything, and then went out into the world to spread around the goodness, and despite their best efforts, many of the other people just don't feel like being civilized."

Did I radically misrepresent your views, there? I've been mainly restricting myself to particular statements you've made, so there is a somewhat non-zero chance that I glossed over some vital nuance.

I'm going to bracket some comments on various bits of that, in advance.

"White people [please define] developed the best [pop quiz: who had better sanitation in 1492, Europeans or Americans?] of everything [please give us some impression that you understand the history of writing, mathematics, etc (the stuff that Don mentioned)], and then went out into the world to spread around the goodness, and despite their best efforts [I'm moderately sure that most of the improvement of the situation of minorities has come about through their own efforts. For example, the Tuskegee Institute: was the man who founded it black, or white?], many of the other people [it would be nice if you defined "races" besides "white", but I honestly forget whether there's any major difference in your ideas about them, aside from laziness vs theft] just don't feel like being civilized [okay, look. No matter what the cause (nature or nurture), these are people who have the odds against them. Blaming them for that is like criticizing someone who's been suckered into a rigged bet for losing, except that there's no element of choice on their part. I mean, unless you're arguing that morality is hereditary. Which you might have been. I think I remember something about that.]."

Others: did I miss anything, or overreach? I just banged this out, so I welcome any corrections.

Bronze Dog said...

Your guess is as good as any.

Ryan W. said...

What I find interesting about Gabe's racism is that the U.S. is one of the few countries that could possess such a racial "divide". We get such privileged prejudice here.

For instance, in the U.S., all people claiming European descent are lumped together as "white", and all people claiming African descent are lumped together as "black".

I can assure you that a Serb, a Croat and an Armenian (wait - are they white or brown?) would agree that they are not only the same ethnicity, but possibly not even the same race.

Same with blacks. You the the Hutus and the Tsutsis of Rwanda consider themselves the same ethnicity?

The point is Gabe, and I'll say this in small words since you're obviously a Polack:

1. Which "white" ethnic group would perform the best on IQ tests? Or would they all perform the same?

2. How do you know that? With evidence.

3. For my own fun, do you consider people of Indian descent (that's the country India,not those evil wagon burnin' prairie niggers that murdered poor, poor, innocent Gen'ral Custer) black?

Anonymous said...

So Ryan, a clear Racist are now attacking me for racism?

I suggest you wash your own laundry before you attack or even say anything to anything else, eh? Or is that to "polish" for you?


Irony at its best, Racist calling me a racist. And the best, Bronze nor anyone else here would point this out to You, as everyone needs to defend eachother here, you cant actually admit, "Oh Yeah, Ryan is a racist and there he is sitting calling Gabriel a Racist, maybe you should STFU Ryan?", no no no, you will pretend that insulting people for being POLISH (a nationality), is perfectly fine, as long as you are not named Gabriel and do not agree with Communism and Atheism.

Sad indeed.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe, his irony was intentional to ridicule you. Duh. Using racism to ridicule a racist.

But then again, I shouldn't be surprised that you're not used to being laughed at. That's why you repeatedly melt down over here.

And of course, he has a point: The concept you call "race" is subject to eternal wiffle-waffling as the tides of fashion change. Such is the thing of ephemeral metaphysical labels. It was fun watching you backpedal when you declared genetics irrelevant.

And I can't help but notice you're still too afraid to answer my question: So, what?

My guess is that even you don't know what you believe. Why else would you change the subject to an ad hominem?

Anonymous said...

You know Bronze, I always suspected you where either a illegal immigrant or coming from illegal immigrants, some ignorant father and/or mother coming to United States of America and being lucky enough to stay in the Greatest Nation in the World.

And here you are, with all the Benefits of being an "American", But you know what, as a REAL American, and I am saying that as Several Generations of Hardworking God Fearing People doing their outmost to make Our Nation as good as it is, Number One, so people like YOU can sit and spit on it without being harmed (be it Atheist, Communist, Socialist faggots or niggers).

But do not forget who made the world you live in, Who created this wonderful world where you CAN insult and lie and live in a Fantasy world without being Harmed, its people like Gabriel and other True Christian in our wonderful Nation.

God Bless America
Gabriel

MWchase said...

You know what, Gabe. I give up. You're right: reality really does depend on the ancestry and life story of whomever you're talking about it with; the gold standard of evidence is whatever things you happen to have seen; there is no onus on you to explain what the terms you use mean, to clarify your position when your opponent, for whatever reason, fails to comprehend your arguments, or to stay remotely on-topic; Germans building on English and American technology are innovating, while Asians building on English and American technology are stealing; people with different skin tones are, in fact, a different species, and morality and intelligence split cleanly along the divides between them; attenuated skin pigmentation is responsible for soil's fertility; people with a particular cross-section of the alleles that exist within another group of people are "more evolved"; and you type beautifully.

No, wait. That's all stupid.

Getting back into it, because I might as well have been sarcastic about all of that, do you see a) why we see you as holding those views, and b) what's wrong with them?

(That last bit, I included because the constant typos really do grate. I hate it when I make typos, I hate it when other people make typos. I hate typos.)

(On a completely off-topic note, I recently started working on a game, and I'm making steady progress. When it's anything resembling complete, anyone want to take a crack at it?)

Bronze Dog said...

Oh, fun. Gabe's getting desperate, again. He can't answer a simple question about his beliefs and their implications, so he decides to make stuff up about me, again.

As if someone as insignificant as I were the focal point of reality. Pathetic. This isn't a clash of titans, Gabe. I'm just a guy pointing out the systematic weaknesses of your arguments with simple, everyday logic. Or at least logic that should be so common.

And you're just some ranting loony who whines and whines when I dare to defy your cartoon caricature provided courtesy of mainstream sitcom indoctrination.

If anyone's ruining America, it's anti-science hippie anecdotalists like you who think that some people are entitled to stuff without doing anything resembling hard work.

I gave you a chance to provide a scientific study about the genetics of this alleged racial inferiority, and the first link you gave was to a PDF that never even looked at the subjects' DNA. Of course, since you were too lazy to read it, it even outlined how meaningless the results were from a pragmatic stand point.

In short, you showed me a paper that agreed with me because you got the lazy man's education at Google U.

And somehow, your laziness is my fault.

And what do you do afterward? You don't go find a study that fits what I was asking for. Instead, you dial Whine-one-one for the PC Police to come to your rescue because Ryan said something that could be vaguely construed as naughty.

I've got news for you, Gabe: The PC Police doesn't patrol here. The only thing they do is a bi-annual drive-by concern trolling. No one here cares about such trivialities as "political correctness."

You also keep trying and failing to make this personal, like the basement nuts who go around calling people pedophiles for not liking their favorite anime.

This is about science, Gabe. You don't have any good scientific evidence, and when we call you on it, you change the subject. You backpedal. You waffle. You whine. You demand that we worship your slothful, sloppy anecdotes and no others, trying to set yourself up as some magical, prophetic, infallible Authority, despite our well-known anti-authoritarian streaks.

Show me some data. Show me some detailed theory with meaningful predictions and methods of measurement.

Or you can just keep alternating between telling us that the sky is blue and spazzing out when we inform you that we already expected it to be.

Anonymous said...

Ah, I wrote a long post and Bronzie Removed it, Hail "Democracy and Freedom", the American way does not rule here.

Pathetic.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe continues his evasiveness:

It is so ironic, and rather sad, that you can't even see your own weakness, but this is of course the reason you never learned anything, you are "always right", and you cant see your faults and take knowledge however much people want to help you.

What logical fallacies have I performed? Don't hold back on my account.

To start with, your Blog was dead before I came back, I Brought It Back To Life, and yet you do nothing more then to insult. Why not stop for a minute and Think About it?

Riiiiight. Because, for example, pointing out that correlation does not equal causation is an insult.

Asking someone to provide data that supports their argument is an insult.

Asking someone to clarify his position and pointing out that he's avoiding that issue is an insult.

Now, the rest of it is even worse, you are using a computer, aren't you? Should we guess that it is people like ME who paid for it with our tax money? You live in a House, do you not? Would it be "to far fetched" to suspect its my Tax Money paying for it?

What relevance does this have to the issues?

You see whiles You, Your mother and father live on benefits, legal or illegal, hardworking, proud white Americans like me are earning money, and alot of that money goes to Help people like you, be it criminals, homosexuals niggers or jews. And I have no problem with Helping, do not misunderstand me there, the problem is, for me, that you are (seemingly) naturally none-workers, naturally users of others. You have no interest in giving to society as White Americans like me, You probably get some girl pregnant and then live out your life on benefits yourselfs.

And again you wiffle-waffle on the value of hard work. Funny, for a while I was starting to wonder if you were arguing that I should be giving "white" people special government-sponsored benefits instead of judging a person by their merits.

But I should be ashamed of being a Proud White American working hard, built the Most Advanced Most Powerful Nation the World has ever seen, I should be ashamed of being the envy of the World, correct?

Wherever did you get that idea? Oh, right. Television and Wikipedia said I believe that, therefore it doesn't matter what the I say I believe.

Because thats what you seem to say.

Only in your daydreams, because that's part of the job description of a professional victim.

Gabriel - A Proud White American

And yet you seem awfully ashamed of America whenever I speak of its virtues. America is a capitalist nation that strives to level the playing field to maximize social mobility for the people who want to learn useful skills and work hard to earn a paycheck. What's wrong with a decent day's wage for a decent day's work? Why should you be given special benefits?

Why are you so afraid of that, Comrade Gabriel?

Bronze Dog said...

Try refreshing your browser, Standard Issue Conspiracy Nut #892375926.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabriel: Because dick-waving contests are more important than discussing the issue at hand.

The issue, by the way, is whatever supernatural inferiority you're preaching about today, most likely different than the one you were preaching about yesterday.

Bronze Dog said...

So, Gabriel, are you done with your Chewbacca Defense spaz attack?

Because I'd really like to hear more detail about your beliefs. Don't be shy, now. Tell me in exacting detail what "race" is, how "race" affects the observable universe, and how this should alter my decisions about favoring smart, hard-working people.

I like smart, hard-working people. That's why I favor cutting lazy, unmotivated, anti-education deadbeats (like Teabaggers, for example) off from benefits and helping those who are willing to bust their asses to join the skilled labor market, whether it involves getting them into school to get those skills, or just to help them find someone who needs the skills they have now.

MWchase said...

Of course he's not done with his spaz attack. Only Mexicans question the Great White Masters, can't you see?

(Seriously, what kind of overstimulated moron reacts to "So, what are you actually saying?" with "You must be one of those people"?)

(Gabe, if you choose to be offended by that parenthetical, please bear in mind that taking the insult to heart is an implicit admission of... man, I don't even know. Let me look it up, just a sec... dang, I'm terrible at this. I can't tell if this counts as No True Scotsman, non sequitur, or what.)

Ryan W. said...

BD:

Don't you love it when you hold the mirror right up to their nose and they don't even recognize the reflection?

Gabe, I was pointing a finger and laughing, a joke everyone else got but you. Next time I'll sound a fire alarm and scream HUMOR ABOUNDS!. Now, again:

1. Which "white" ethnic group would perform the best on IQ tests? Or would they all perform the same?

2. How do you know that? With evidence.

3. For my own fun, do you consider people of Indian descent black?

Bronze Dog said...

MW: (Seriously, what kind of overstimulated moron reacts to "So, what are you actually saying?" with "You must be one of those people"?)

Yeah, I think it's time to recategorize the stereotype I have of Gabe in my head. When he first showed up, he was all "shiftless stoner solipsist" in regards to science. Now he's more "meth addict without an attention span."

The funny thing is he doesn't seem to realize that other people can stay focused on a task.

---

So, Gabe:

1. What is "race"?

2. How do you measure "race"?

3. What effects does "race" have on the observable universe?

4. What implications does your "race theory" have on our decision-making processes if we were to accept it as true?

Anonymous said...

1. What is "race"?

So Bronze, What is Science? How do you measure "science"? What effects does "Science" have on the observable universe?

You may not "get it", but you want to have an -obvious- explained to you.


Basic, quick, Dictionary Definition: "a taxonomic group that is a division of a species; usually arises as a consequence of geographical isolation within a species"

Gosh, must be hard to be Bronze Dog.


2. How do you measure "race"?

Seriously?
Read up on what Race is, and go from there young man, education might help you in your impressive ignorance.


3. What effects does "race" have on the observable universe?

I guess in creation, the White Race have created the most Advanced and Powerful Nation the world have ever seen. Today Americans live lives that Africans can only Dream about and Everyone else is paying as much money as they can to Get (our technologies).

I guess thats how it affects.


4. What implications does your "race theory" have on our decision-making processes if we were to accept it as true?

Perhaps stop destroying the world with your commie atheistic bullshit? Take the Lord to your Heart and start doing good as People of United States of America is doing and what caused us to become so Great.

But you want nothing of that, Destroy the world, Hail Communism and Nazism, and, lets not forget, Darwin.

But I should probably include things like global warming and big bang as this is things you believe in as well, ufos and anything inbetween, right?


Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

Aw, look Gabe grew a little spine, finally. How cute.

Okay, so now you've flip-flopped back to a genetics-based definition of "race." Good for you. So, how many races are there, and what are the defining characteristics of each group?

I can't measure race without that information, especially since last time I checked, the ones that are in fashion in the US haven't actually been defined except by self-identification, and you should know how sloppy a methodology that gets.

As for the effects (plural noun, not a verb) it has on reality, HOW did it cause "whites" to succeed?

I was under the fantastical impression that first world nations rose to power because of, you know, educational systems, the advancement of science and technology, abundance of resources, and good old fashioned elbow grease.

---

As for your questions about science:

Science is a methodology for determining the truth. A positive proposal, known as a hypothesis must be tested by observation and/or experimentation. Alternative causes and explanations for events must be controlled for, especially biases from the experimenters.

The hypothesis must be falsifiable: It must make predictions that will either be true or false. If a prediction is false, the hypothesis must be abandoned or modified to explain the result, and tested again under appropriate circumstances.

Accepted theories are hypotheses that have undergone extensive testing and refinement as new data comes in, produce reliable predictions, and are not contradicted by existing observations.

That's the gist of it.

Now, was that so hard, Gabe?

Bronze Dog said...

Heh. Missed the part on changing my religion because of Gabe's racial fashions.

1. Which god? There are thousands and thousands. That includes thousands of "Christian" gods. That includes one "Christian" god that Adolph Hitler worshiped. I'm not about to roll the dice. Give me a god theory that produces repeatable, falsifiable predictions. If you can't do that, you might as well come out and say that your god is random.

2. Which Jesus? The behavior of his described in the Bible is terribly inconsistent, as well as his origin story. Hitler's version of Jesus was "a fighter" out to stand up against the villainous Jews. I see a standard-issue apocalypse cult that just happened to survive.

3. Communism is stupid, hence I don't need to change that opinion. Go, Capitalism! Reward the people who actually make something of themselves!

4. Darwin was just one scientist who put together idea of natural selection. He and future scientists went on to discover its explanatory power and combined it with population genetics (Darwin didn't know about DNA) to form what is now the modern synthesis of evolution. Darwin was no prophet and his original theory is quite outdated. Science marched on in the intervening 150 years. No need to read something so archaic.

5. The Big Bang is the most parsimonious explanation for the expansion of the universe. Scientists used the Big Bang Theory to predict the cosmic background microwave radiation before measuring it. It certainly beats the Creationist explanation of random chance spawning something bigger and more complex than the universe.

6. UFOs. What kind? You mean objects in the sky that people were unable to identify. Obviously. Alien spacecraft? Bullshit. Show me some pieces of material with an isotopic ratio that isn't typical for Earth objects, and then we'll talk. I won't be holding my breath.

7. Evolution: Clearly, for anyone who's been paying attention. Show me something outstanding like a rabbit in Cambrian rock, a natural born crocoduck, or something like that, and then I'll be open to other explanations. Of course, Creationists will chime in with "random!" and I will not be impressed.

Anonymous said...

6. UFOs. What kind? You mean objects in the sky that people were unable to identify. Obviously. Alien spacecraft? Bullshit. Show me some pieces of material with an isotopic ratio that isn't typical for Earth objects, and then we'll talk. I won't be holding my breath.

...... Wait... Hold on... WTF?

So, you believe in the Big Bang and Global Warming, but you DENY GOD?

And then... ALSO deny UFO's.... Not very consistent here are you Bronze, you should atleast believe in UFOs if you believe in bigbangs and Global Warming? And if you dey Gods existence, completely randomly whiles accepting GW and BB and then, wonk!!!! Deny UFOs...


NOT very consistent Bronzie, not very consistent at all. But thats what to be expected.

Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

Where's the inconsistency, Gabe?

MWchase said...

You fail to believe in all of the things he doesn't believe in, is where the inconsistency is :P

Bronze Dog said...

How about I clarify a few things:

Bigfoot? Bullshit.

Loch Ness Monster? Bullshit.

Alien spacecraft visiting Earth? Bullshit.

Fairies? Bullshit.

Atlantis? Bullshit.

Unicorns? Bullshit.

A successful, genuinely Communist country? Bullshit.

Gods? Bullshit.

Psychics? Bullshit.

Faith healers? Bullshit.

Philadelphia Experiment? Bullshit.

Area 51? The alien story is bullshit. More likely it was an experimental aircraft testing site which may have been turned into an illegal waste dump. The alien story was co-opted for counter-intelligence purposes.

The Aurora stealth aircraft? Either a development code name for one of the current stealth craft, a scrapped project, or bullshit.

Illuminati? Bullshit.

Global conspiracies? Bullshit.

Secret Societies? Too weak to do anything really big.

Anything else I should cover?

Anonymous said...

You Deny the existence of God but you believe in Global Warming and Big Bangs and then, ironically, deny UFOs.....

Do you SERIOUSLY not see the irony and stupidity of this? You Deny God whiles Accepting ridiculous things like BigBangs, do you really not see it? And then you deny UFOs which would be together with your BigBangs, Global Warming or any other Liberal commie belief. Seriously..

Bronze Dog said...

I fail to see how any of those things relate together.

Anonymous said...

Well then, two choices:

1. Either you are an Idiot.

2. You are to afraid to debate this as you realize you met someone more intelligent and knowledgeable.


But you know, its rather clear, I suspect, its part of both, you are both limited (idiot) and afraid, and as you mentioned it several times, I wont "disturb you" anymore here as it muddles the water to much for you to hear truth (or just other views), so Iet you be with your friends here that agree with you, in silence as I assume the place will die out as it did previously.

Its to bad that you cantface up to it and take a challenge by the horn and learn, you haven't even started a new topic for ages and I can see why now.

Don't worry Bronze, I wont "bother you" anymore, you continue your little life o Big Bangs and Global Warmings with everyone believing just as you, I might have a look in once and awhile to see if there is any progress... Haha, that is, any posts at all when I am gone.

Gabriel


P.S, Its sad when the fear of others is so clear that even your "friends" show it as well, man you got to be scared shitless in the real world in a debating climate... Oh, you would never be in one of does would you, sad and pathetic.

Bronze Dog said...

Welcome to a real person, Gabriel.

Well then, two choices:

1. Either you are an Idiot.

2. You are to afraid to debate this as you realize you met someone more intelligent and knowledgeable.


How about option 3: You, Gabriel, are gullible enough to believe mainstream media.

But you know, its rather clear, I suspect, its part of both, you are both limited (idiot) and afraid, and as you mentioned it several times, I wont "disturb you" anymore here as it muddles the water to much for you to hear truth (or just other views), so Iet you be with your friends here that agree with you, in silence as I assume the place will die out as it did previously.

Chickening out, huh. You finally realize that you've been duped all your life into believing in a fantasy world, and rather than man up to it, you run away. Oh, well, I've had my fun making you embarrass yourself.

Its to bad that you cantface up to it and take a challenge by the horn and learn, you haven't even started a new topic for ages and I can see why now.

Afraid to tell me how your hippie friends' delusions are somehow related to the very democratic and capitalist theories that happened to win out in the marketplace of ideas?

Scared that I defied all your labels?

Don't worry Bronze, I wont "bother you" anymore, you continue your little life o Big Bangs and Global Warmings with everyone believing just as you, I might have a look in once and awhile to see if there is any progress... Haha, that is, any posts at all when I am gone.

Right. Have fun in the early iron age apocalypse cult.

...You know it's hilarious how you have a fetish for my hobby. Is your life really controlled by my blogging frequency? What a sad, sad individual. At least you admit it.

P.S, Its sad when the fear of others is so clear that even your "friends" show it as well, man you got to be scared shitless in the real world in a debating climate... Oh, you would never be in one of does would you, sad and pathetic.

What debate? You're the one who's running away from verifiable, testable scientific facts by repeatedly changing the subject whenever I point out the inconvenient elephants in the room. I'm willing to keep going.

Did mean old Bronze Dog stomp on your alien abduction fantasies?

MWchase said...

Protip: "big bang" is not synonymous with "anal probe Fridays".

I mean, I seriously see no other way to connect "far in the past, all of the universe was a singularity, which underwent rapid decompression and cooling, gradually condensing into what we see today" (vastly simplified, and probably contains at least one horrible misuse of terminology) with either "those geese/Venus/airplanes/stars/the moon look suspicious" or "THERE ARE ALIENS VISITING US!ONEONEONE".

Since this clearly isn't something you believe, would you care to point us at whatever gave you the thoroughly odd idea that these beliefs are connected.

Anyway, if he really is done squirming for our amusement... Eh, I've got nothing significant off-topic to say. Back to coding, I guess.

Bronze Dog said...

So, other bullshit, since Gabriel chickened out when I asked for inconsistencies. This REALLY ought to mess him up if he comes back:

Acupuncture: Bullshit, but not just any bullshit. It's Maoist bullshit for that double bullshity taste.

Ayurveda: Bullshit. With a hint of mercury and arsenic.

Homeopathy: Bullshit that isn't watered down.

Lysenkoism: Bullshit. With Joseph Stalin and Sarah Palin's seals of approval, so that you know it's quality bullshit. And Joe will throw you in the gulag if you don't make it a part of your regular diet.

Reiki: Bullshit that's not touching you! It's not touching you!

Reflexology: Bullshit freshly stepped in.

Iridology: You won't believe your eyes when you see this bullshit.

Theraputic Touch: Bullshit that rubs on smooth.

Distant Healing: Bullshit you can smell from miles away.

Andrew Wakefield: It's like a bullshit onion. Just when you think you've heard the latest bullshit, investigative journalist Brian Deer exposes yet another, moister layer underneath.

Perpetual Motion Machines: Bullshit that just keeps on stinking and stinking and stinking. Nothing stops the PMM bullshit.

The Mainstream Media "New Discovery Will Change EVERYTHING Overnight!" News report trope: Bullshit that only gets incrementally stinkier each time.

The Mainstream Media "He's a Modern Galileo!" Trope: Bullshit that either stinks terribly, or turns out to have its stink greatly exaggerated.

Ryan W. said...

So this guy's argument is that it's so obvious (that if you believe the Big Bang occurred and global warming you must therefore believe extra-terrestrial intelligence has visited earth) you are an idiot if you don't know, yet when asked for said extremely obvious reason he changes the subject.

BD,

I think the only way to control this loon is to keep him on topic.

Bronze Dog said...

I don't care too much about keeping Gabe on topic. I mostly want to have fun tearing down the walls of delusions he has.

And right now, I'm finding it hilarious how out of touch he is with mainstream science and American subcultures.

It's like he's only seen Americans on television, and is only repeating Nationalist mantras about America because he thinks that bullshit works on people like me, who want to make America great, rather than rest on our ancestors' laurels.

We're talking about a guy who thinks America can't possibly backslide, despite the fact that we're falling way behind on education thanks to all the epistemological nihilists like him. We're at the beginning of a Dim Age, and skeptics like us are trying to reverse that.

You know, I'm getting to the point that I wish China or India would do something "Sputnik" to shame these people into getting off their asses and learning something about how the world works.

Anonymous said...

Ha, Sputnik was made out of White (western) stolen technology.

Bronze Dog said...

And yet, at the time America, was too lazy to put such a simple device in orbit. A country that had a reputation for being stuck in the medieval ages did something Americans had to spend a few years just trying to copy it.

Did you not read the history books?

Did you not see the footage of all the American rockets blowing up on the launch pads?

Did you not see the contemporary comics trying to shame Americans into learning how to catch up instead of sitting on their lazy asses?

And now, half a century later, for one example, India is getting more time in the GIS limelight for launching quality remote sensing satellites, and you want me to be a lazy ass like America was when Russia was catching up.

...Are you being paid by leftover USSR remnants to try to convince me to be complacent?

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe, did you ever read "The Tortoise and the Hare?"

The Hare was not a good role model for America.

Ryan W. said...

Wait -

Now Russians aren't white? Are they not the very embodiment of the word "Caucasian"?

Bronze Dog said...

Yeah, I noticed that. Not surprising that Gabe will flip-flop whenever it makes an excuse to do nothing.

Naturally, he once again wiffle-waffles on the value of hard work. Yesterday, he said it was a virtue. Now he believes it's a sin.

Chakat Firepaw said...

AIR, when I was questioning him about who counts as white the most I got was an indirect statement that Iberians aren't.

Here Gabe, I'll give you a softball on starting to define "white": Were the Franks white?

MWchase said...

I forget if I asked this before, but Gabe, how much do you need to know about someone before you can tell what race they are? Is, say, a headshot sufficient? If so, I've got some images I'd like you to take a look at.

Bronze Dog said...

Something that demonstrates the fundie permissiveness towards genocide.

It's people like this who make me think fundies only hate Hitler because he lost. If he won, they'd be worshiping him as the next Jesus and write The Newer Testament in his name.

skybluskyblue said...

"The doctrine of Hell requires a permissive attitude towards torture." Not only that, but the idea that it will last forever is incongruent to the amount of time spent "sinning" and even the amount of time those "sins" affect the universe. Thus the doctrine of eternal hell requires a permissive attitude toward overkill. lol.