Monday, November 05, 2007

What Would it Take to Convince Me?

Just felt like bringing this up after reading a bit of a Conservapedia troll-bashing.

So, what would it take for me to believe in the Christian god? Well, one item that comes to mind is this, which should be trivially easy for an omnipotent deity: Make a Longview cane sugar Dr Pepper (1 pint) poof into existence with a flash of light and smoke onto this CD sleeve next to my keyboard at the moment I click "Publish Post."

...Nope. You can bet that if a fundie comes in here, he'll try to rationalize it as God not wanting me to believe *yet* or something about being obligated to work in mysterious ways in recent centuries, rather than the 'vulgar magic' style miracles described in the Bible.

13 comments:

King Aardvark said...

That's a good one. I think I'll use it next time I'm asked that question. It's a good response because it's so specific, immediate, and mundane that it would be very hard to explain away as the work of super-powerful space aliens, which is always the stumbling block for me with any potential miracles.

Jay said...

Are you for real you think God would put a show on for you.
He has shown himself through creation and you still don't believe.
Lets say i believe as you do I have nothing yo lose you have everything to lose if i am right about hell.

Jay

Q said...

Why not? He apparently could do all sorts of magical tricks back in the day as often as he wanted. Your assertions of creation are also unfounded as you have no evidence to back up the claim.
Besides, you're only talking one deity when others may talk of a vast load of others. Ever get scared you might be worshipping the wrong one or in the wrong way? You've plenty more to lose then in that case.

Bronze Dog said...

Don't be so sure that you don't have anything to lose. The Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't particularly like theists. Stomps 'em for eternity or something like that.

As for putting on a display, well, Q's got it down pretty well: He used to do very overt tricks like lighting up a bonfire from wet wood. Yet in today's world, when we've gotten down the point that we could test even incredibly subtle paranormal powers, God seems to have gotten smaller than anything PEAR tried to claim.

Why wouldn't he just create the Dr Pepper, anyway? Is he so opposed to me getting into Heaven that he'll create a deceptive world that looks billions of years old by all metrics, rather than just snap his fingers? It's not like I'm asking for a million dollars or superpowers.

Besides, why would I align myself with a deity who resorted to petty intimidation? What does he think he is? Just another primitive stone idol? Oh. Right. He is.

Of course, going to the evidence... well, what evidence? Please be specific. The universe looks pretty undesigned and orderly to me.

Laser Potato said...

Darn you, Bronze Dog. Now I miss cane sugar Coke even more. :(

Joseph said...

Of course there are miracles nowadays. How else do you explain the 1969 Mets?

Laser Potato said...

Oh swell, Jay the Wonder Doofus followed you here from Shalini's place.

Jay said...

Bronze dog and Q you know as much about the bible as I do Science.

1. You are DEAD in sin cut off from God.
He will do nothing in the order of miracles until you admit that.

2. He operates through Blessing, mercy, and Judgement.

3. Now he says see look at the creation and see a designer and believe in him.

4. You clearly don't so you have not met the condition of God that is to believe that he is.
You will never understand God by logic and reason would you let a teenager with a low IQ and no understanding of science dictate to you.
So why do you try and dictate to God who has an intellect beyond comprehension.
Does not the student who the science teacher teaches have to "trust and believe" that he is telling him the truth, at least until he can grasp it for himself.


5. Anyway even if God did grant you your conditions that would not be enough for you to trust in him, as we seen it happen many times in the new testament.

6. Now I speak as someone who has experienced God through the gifts of the spirit.
I have heard men say for instance that the berlin wall would fall many years before it happened in the heart of the cold war.
And many other accurate prophetic words personelly.
Now I only experienced this after I believed.

7. Just because God is not performing your little magic show does not mean he will not perform a miracle in the future.

8 there is plenty of miracles witnessed and in print through church history.
Check out SMITH WIGGLESWORTH or William Branaham.

9 A thousand years is as a day to God.

10 He will not show himself to you until you admit your own faults and sin.

11 Lets say there is a pink unicorn how would that make sense.
Even scientists believe in good and evil.
I base my belief in the fact that evil should be punished and good rewarded as we do in our judical system as flawed as that may be as it is fallable men and women involved and not so with an infallable God.

12 All the bible stands for is good and the reward for good.
It also stands for the judgement of evil which is good.
And might i add it is protective in that it tells you not to sleep around get drunk kill murder ect.
This is a perfect model for society.
We all know the damage sinfull living does the Bible guide to life is not restrictive but protective.

Q said...

1. Pah! You make me laugh. Why should I believe in something that cannot do as simple a task as Bronze had mentioned above? It seems to me that if I just don't believe in him, he'll just go away, so I'm safe. You're apparently telling me that his powers are useless until I acknowledge them. Makes him seem pretty darn feeble to me.

2. Never seen a blessing, only the ones attributed to natural circumstances which don't count as divine in my books. You'd think judgement and mercy wouldn't go hand in hand with one another either, what with the whole eternal damnation thing going on as well. Is it somehow merciful to send a person to an eternity of pain and suffering for a finite life or perhaps something that your alleged god could have reversed in the first place?

3. And lie to myself? I could suppose look at my house and see the designer, but why would I believe your god had a hand in it? There is nothing in the natural world that would suggest design though, so that's a dead end.

4. Lol what? The infinite wisdom of unleashing bears on children, annihilating whole civilisations and flooding the world all because his own creations got too unruly for him? Smart.
I do think I'm more intelligent than a storybook character though, thanks for asking.

5. BD already set the conditions that would suggest to him there was a deity. Why do you not think that an apparently simple, yet difficult to explain task would not convince us otherwise? 'Coz Noo Testamint sid so.'
Riiiight. And your precious arguments will somehow do so?

6. I think anyone could have seen that the way things were going in the Soviet Union. Didn't take a god guess to do it either. Take a number and try again.

7. Ahh, but the thing is, he has never been recorded doing any magic, except in your storybook. It talks of so many wild and wicked things happening as he ran rampant, yet he is dumb and mute to all of 'teh evil' that is apparently going on with the world today. With a sterling track record of nothing, I think I can safely bet on more of the same on the god front.

8. Then in the same way that various other religions have detailed their miracles in tomes, ones that I'm sure you choose to neglect.

9. So if these days and years are such minor specks in the day in the life of gourd, one could expect him to get alot of things done. Anything? No?

10. Ooh, merciful. Admit I'm trash and I get to see the big cheese. Don't and it's the oven for me.
Unlike you apparently, I'm actually quite happy with the way I am. I may not be perfect, but I am actively friendly to other people, help people out from time to time, and don't wish any harm on anyone else. Unlike your god then, who broods alot and punishes people for alleged bad things done against him....like not believing in him. What frail feelings.

11. Wanton murder and destruction are the hallmarks of infallibility and fairness. Or was that a despot? Or a tyrant?

12. And all the stoning and killing done in his name too? Heck, even gourd gets to dick around with people in the bible and still gets called good, so what do I know eh?
I'm pretty sure most reasonable people don't require a book to tell them how to act well towards one another. You'd think that if we took your word as true, the whole world would be up in flames about now. Not so.

King TuT said...

Oh my you surely go on a bit about a God you don't believe in.

Fact is you attack God for bringing Judgement on wicked people.
When you would certainly want the head of someone who mudered your family.

You say God is weak not at all he is long suffering and will bring judgement as and when he pleases.

You say the fall of the Berlin wall was perdictable you did'nt perdict it in the height of the cold war.

Sorry you need to do better than that.

If fact your whole attack centers around God's justice and judgement.
You forget about a little thing called free will and man's responsability to use it for GOOD.
Nobody gets punished unless they consistantly rebel and curse God.
Someone like yourself is a good example and you will find out maybe sooner than you think.

The fact is your ranting and raving about God's judgement is childish.
You forget about all those he loved and protected just simply because they believed in him.

The fact that you "Do the odd good deed" just shows that the common grace that God shows to his creation is evident.

But what about your sin and who sets your morals YOU DO.
See you want to be your own God and set your own moral standards.
Lets say i set my own moral standards and I decide to blow your brains out that really is a great model for society NOT.

Anyway you just blow hot air and mouth of against God and the fact that he gives man chance after chance to accept him doe snot matter to you.
We know where you stand you HATE God and Jesus Christ.

You will understand me better when you die, unless you do as God is telling you I guarentee you will perish and suffer eternal torment.

Q said...

Surely you jest? When he pleases? How fickle. You'll need to do way better than that, talking of an all-powerful, all-knowing figurehead.

You talk of vigilantism when talking of a revenge for murder. Though I would be incensed, why would I wish an eternity of misery upon someone who had committed a crime in what you call a pithy lifetime? Hell for all crimes seems pretty weak to me.

There isn't any proof that jay knew that the Berlin Wall was going to fall either. Only his word, which is shaky at best.

So God instills free will in people so he has a fresh supply of victims to go to hell for his own whims? For some 'loving' parent, he sure enjoys torturing his flock. What you're talking about is the majority of the world's population going to a flaming hell for the crime of not believing in your particular fairy tale. Why not give some proof, any proof to prove his existance?

You'll need actual proof about all the people he protected and allegedly saved. There are all too many people who credit a non-presence when the real heroes are doctors, firemen, police, even ordinary bystanders under the right circumstances. I think it is terribly unfair to them, and for you to ignore them is the height of ignorance.

I do good deeds not under threat or duress. I do them because I like people, not clouds. Helping other humans is a good thing is it not? Cultivates the kind of environment one would want to live in and garners friendship and well-being amongst the people. Then why are so-called acts of god
almost exclusively for the detriment of humans?

Heh, I bet you would love to shoot to kill me, and there are plenty of those out there who read the bible who most certainly would. Granted there are those who don't who would too, but really. Having a religion doesn't automatically grant someone pristine morality. It is a learned behaviour, one that develops usually in relation to one's surroundings and how they react with others. Why would there be so many christian sects if it weren't the case? Shouldn't there just be the one if it were so rigid?

Heh, I wonder. What exactly is your purpose for being here? Pissed that I and many others have a negative view of your god? Disappointed that we haven't been duped in the same way you and jay above have been? Truthfully, I hate him as much as I do certain other characters in fiction. Doesn't mean I believe in them. Think yor rants of hate and hellfire will somehow convert me or anyone else here? Well I could understand with jay, but that's a given.

When I do die, I'll cease to be. Threats of violence against the dead are pretty silly. It doesn't really matter that I cannot hear any demands of yours or any other god.

King Tut said...

Q "Victims" really is a murderer a victim if he gets punished.

"Duped" and you believe two nothings come together to create something please.


"His Flock" non Christian are not his flock and he dosen't enjoy punishing them either.
Why people don't recieve God's gift and live is beyond me, they would rather rebel and do evil.


"One true faith" I agree sects are what they are false and not biblical very easy to refute from the bible.
"Acts of God detriment to humans"
So food water earth oxygen are detriment to humans.
And who says they are acts of God the bible dose not make a distinction on eathquakes and so forth this world is cursed by the fact that MAN has destroyred the planet thats why God will destroy it now that will be an act of God.
I mean men letting of nuculer bombs underseas certainly is not doing anything to help earthquakes.


I agree with firemen police and so forth being good professions but a good profession does make a good person.
Just look at people with murder convictions or rape and you will see they include police and firemaen.

"Learned behaviour" I agree and we learn our behaviour from Good decent people who practice the morals of the bible the ten commandts etc.
And you know that government took those christian values of some of the commandments and applied them to society in their law system.

The fact is you have no real proof that of how the universe come to be you have no answer for where matter of any sort come to be.
So you do indeed have a faith.

You keep asking for proof when it is all around you but you choose not to believe.
You would rather believe in faith science.
I believe in factual science as far science goes and I believe in a creator because I trusted and believed, and like Jay have read men who spoke of the future with great details how Israel would regain their land people like Harry Ironside etc.

You can test even by the bible which talked of Christs coming with detail thousands of years before he come.

You trust people like pilots and bus drivers to do their job properly when you have no real proof that they have a licence and are trustworthy to fly or drive.

But you won't put your faith in a God who shows Design all over creation and also shows himself through prophecy and knowledge see the book of Job and you will see the world being spoken of as round many years before man discovered it.

Anyway Q regardless of how you think I hate you I don't I have an issue with what you stand and for that reason I defend my faith.

I know this that you will never experience true life with everthing being understood as logic.

You have said you are not interested in God but yet he still has an interest in you and is not willing to send anyone to hell.

Imperfect cannont exsist with perfect and all the christian faith is our admittance of sin and guilt and one day we will be made perfect as he is.

Q said...

I recognise the words, but the order is confusing. I'll try and dig through what I can understand though.

You do realise that a belief in any kind of god is a learned trait right? So why punish those who are not even aware or exposed to this doctrine of yours? Hell for those people is incredibly unjust, reversing your view on a fair deity.

One true sect? You do realise that the other groups you so dismiss may have their own take on the bible and nearly all of them will think they are interpreting it better and are hence better christians than you.

Those aren't acts of god (in any sense of the word). I'm talking the disasters that most people proclaim in the media. Though they are all natural events without a sign of god, they are often either attributed to your god or some devil. In the case of the latter, why is it only he who can make a physical impact on the world why your deity watches?
We do have man-made disasters and some acts done out of hate, but I fail to see how the intentional destruction of the planet will prove anything, except how petty some creator is towards his creation for your circumstances.

Yes, you should also look at the ministers and preachers who get jailed for rape and murder as well. Goes against your arguments for morality, and don't give me the 'they weren't true christians' shtick.

As above. You do realise that many other cultures had their own working systems of governance in place long before christianity or even judaism had emerged, and not many needed to wait around for the bible to create a stable system and code of laws. I also know that governments that ran solely off those beliefs (like the monarchy of Mary I) created terrible conditions for the people and hardly promoted any of the good you so claim.
Just because some systems share traits says more of how people want to treat each other rather than what they believe.

I don't have faith in your religious beliefs. Faith is a blind belief that has no evidence, like that which you show for your god and bible. Though I am not a scientist or a master of the subject, I can read and have found more evidence supporting the scientific counter-claims to your magic creation. I trust humans who are real and not bound to fictional entities to find the answers. As of now, there is nothing to support your claims, which hence need extraordinary evidence to show otherwise.

The natural world is just as much evidence for your god as it is for any other. Why not Uranus (the Greek titan, not the planet or joke)? Why not Odin? Why not Vishnu? Why your brand of deity? Others could say that it was you who was blind to their traits of creation in the same way as you do here, yet I feel you would discredit them in much the same way I do yours. Science doesn't run on faith. It looks for real answers and is not bound on an apparently unchanging scripture.
And I feel you're doing the Nostradamus thing with your prophecy, with events that can only be traced back after it happens. Works with the same kind of vagueness that psychics, tarot and the likes work on.
You also realise that the bible was written after the fact, right?

I do imagine that I have to trust others to be able to do their job, but it is reasonable to accept that they would not be there unless they had qualified. That's where the testing comes in, and again, there is nothing pointing to anything divine.

Remember that you came here, full well knowing the content of the site. If you were defending yourself, it would be on a site that acknowledged and supported your viewpoint. I harbour no true hostility, but I do not appreciate hearing the same old song and dance, with veiled threats of bullying thrown in. You are pushing offense here, and I felt compelled to respond.

You are repeating a lot of what you say, but it again boils down to the original reason for this post: "What would it take to convince me?" There is still nothing pointing to magic or gods of any sort. All the talk of the failings of humanity could be washed away in one fell swoop you reckon, but there is nothing to show for it within the reality we live in.

I'm going to leave it for BD when/if he gets back. I feel this may have run away from him and he might have something to say.
Though I feel no one in this talk is going to convince anyone of anything they disagree with, I hope one day you might see the world for what it is: a rich and vibrant place that does not need a magic hand to be stunning or magnificent.

Good Day.