Monday, February 28, 2011

Needle in a Haystack

If any theists who claim their god(s) speak to them stumble on this post, let's play a little role reversal. You'll be playing the atheist in this game. Here's the setup:

The gods:
God Premise 1: Let us assume there are 26 possible god beliefs out there, labeled A through Z.
God Premise 2: Let us assume that you currently do not know which, if any, of these gods are real or false.
God Premise 3: Let us assume that each god is described as powerful.
God Premise 4: Let us assume that if any of these gods are real, that they wish to convince us of their existence.

The Priests:
Priest Premise 1: Let us assume we have 26 priests, one of each god belief who wish to prove that they are correct in their god belief.
Priest Premise 2: Let us assume each priest claims that their god, gods, or spirits speak to them.
Priest Premise 3: Let us assume that, to date, all priests have alleged records of ancient miracles.
Priest Premise 4: Let us assume that all priests are humans.

Humans:
Human Premise 1: Let us assume that all humans are capable of making mistakes.
Human Premise 2: Let us assume that some humans are subject to mental disorders that lead to hearing voices, often with commands.
Human Premise 3: Let us assume that some humans are willing to lie about their god belief for various reasons.
Human Premise 4: Let us assume that human memory is subject to alteration based on personal biases.
Human Premise 5: Let us assume that humans recently developed methods of recording and measuring information that is more reliable than their memory and subjective perception.

Are there any objections to these premises?

If not, what will you ask of the priests to determine which, if any of the gods are real?

222 comments:

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Bronze Dog said...

Anyway, Gabe, what alternative distinction do you suggest there is between humans and other animals?

Unknown said...

Yes that would include Chimpanzees, so, are you simple going to ignore your hypocrisy here?

Or perhaps you consider yourself above Chimpanzees, and thus, they are not included?

Bronze Dog said...

Funny, I didn't notice terribly complex culture among chimpanzees. Care to provide examples?

Unknown said...

Yes that would include Chimpanzees, so, are you simple going to ignore your hypocrisy here?

Or perhaps you consider yourself above Chimpanzees, and thus, they are not included?

Bronze Dog said...

We hit the 200 comment per page limit. New comments on a new page.

Unknown said...

How interesting, you sound just like does "racist" you say point out backward negros in Africa... Funny that.

According to every single Scientist in the field of Biology would consider Chimpanzees "complex", whatever that means, you do not include details but I suspects its a subjective definition that make sure only humans can be defined as "it", correct? Building planes else no complex?

Funny funny. I give up Bronze, you made your views clear, How amusing. You enjoy your blind nodding followers, no questions asked.

Gabriel - Bye

Bronze Dog said...

Let's get this straight: I point out, in general terms, some criteria that my decisions are based on.

You then point to one fuzzy area.

I ask you for more information about the basis of your inclusion of chimpanzees as "sentient."

By doing so, I show a willingness to discuss the issue and revise my definitions and opinion based on evidence.

And you suddenly treat that simple act as if it were a statement of closed-mindedness.

And who's talking about building airplanes? What are you snorting? Do you seriously think anyone other than you would consider a technology which was most likely NOT developed as a result of new neural evolution to be a defining criterion? It's not even a good example.

The fact that you bring up airplanes seems to suggest that you think that all modern technological progress is caused by genetics, which is, frankly, cuckoo.

I certainly don't see any other explanation that would be consistent with your other rhetoric, but given that you've flip-flopped on everything else, consistency isn't something I'm eager to attribute to you.

King of Ferrets said...

Holy crap, I don't pay attention for months on end and Gabe is still around? Talk about persistent.

MWchase said...

Well, he's been quiet the last few weeks. I don't know how closely you read the previous page, but his... everything has gotten all weird and inscrutable. His current course of action seems to indicate that either he's really stupid, or... actually there isn't any other possibility right now. Just different manifestations of stupidity.

I'll also state that it's downright surreal talking to him about non-fundy-related stuff. His attitude switches on a dime, and stuff.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
King of Ferrets said...

Yeah, I noticed he'd gotten kinda weird... was it a slow transition, or did he just suddenly get crazier?

Also, curse you, Google accounts! Accidentally posted this with the account I use for a group YouTube thing instead of my blogging account at first...

MWchase said...

Little of Column A, little of Column B. He's always been ratcheting up the rhetoric, which went out of control when he started claiming that Jesus was talking to him. I've got a challenge to that ongoing, set to expire next week (spoiler alert!). However, then he started going on about how he'd been faking it the whole time, and was actually an "evolutionist" all along. Therefore, since he's been trolling us for so long, we should be best friends. I can't tell if he legitimately knows nothing about the positions he's claiming to hold, or if he's feigning ignorance to be an asshole.

Bits of peculiarity include claiming to march in lockstep with us, but also still being in favor of reparation therapy.

MWchase said...

Anyway, he's gone quiet for now. I was thinking of bringing up theological ideas besides Divine Command Theory, for the heck of it.

Like, say, the aspect of Calvinism that entry into heaven is predestined, because god is omniscient. I suppose if you accept this as true, then things get into Newcomb's paradox territory. The way I've usually seen it thought about is, if you know you're getting into heaven, then whatever you're going to do is okay with god. Whether that actually happens in the mind of believers is where Newcomb's paradox comes in, I think.

And Newcomb's paradox itself raises issues (the same issues, actually, but I'm feeling a little scattered). You've got a being that's supposed to be able to outthink anyone—anyone—else.

Mental leap to: the idea that god wants to save people. If that's the case, the surest way to guarantee belief is to demonstrate his power; faffing around like he did after Adam and Eve ate the fruit (hehheh, "ate the fruit") seems counter to that end, and trying to apologize for apparent failures with the excuse "he was fucking with you"

Is exactly why Gabe has been so confusing. Huh. I did not mean to bring things full circle-ish like that.

Bronze Dog said...

Anyway, it's good to hear from you again KoF. I've been slacking off relative to my blog (aside from easy commenting versus Gabriel), but I'm trying to get back to my own pace. Probably need to get out of my comfortable skeptical topics so that I can have more new stuff to write.

King of Ferrets said...

Ack! MWchase is making me think! I'm coming on during a free period, thinking is my bane! Wait, why am I coming here if thinking is my bane? How silly of me.

BD: Good luck in getting back on track. Finding new topics might be nice; one thing about you is that while you write about the topics you cover very well, you seem to retread ground often. Writing about new things might help you get more of a passion for blogging again.

MWchase said...

Guess what, everyone! The deadline for the challenge is in less than an hour! I'll give Gabe as much time as I feel like to pull a last-minute conversion back and whip out some devastating evidence, but soon enough the challenge will be controlled only by my whims.

It will be officially terminated when I post the file that I SHA1summed four weeks(!!!) ago.

(This all assumes that I haven't missed an update to that file. I'll note that if the mtime isn't from February.)

MWchase said...

Okay, I'm done waiting.

Just checked the sha1 on this file, it matches. If anyone feels like, you know, making a point, they can sha1 the zip themselves, but I'm mostly doing this for the sake of rigor.

linky

MWchase said...

Quick clarification that I realized is necessary. The sha1 that matches is the second one. The first is irrelevant now.

Margaret said...

Gabriel seems to be infesting Pharyngula at the moment as gabriel.bianco78

Margaret said...

Oops! The Gabriel infestation at Pharyngula was earlier this month and he has already been banned there. I'm clearly behind in my reading.

Bronze Dog said...

Don't worry. Happens to the best of us. I suspected he was banned from Pharyngula since he made an earlier comment about how PZ couldn't withstand his genius or such crap.

MWchase said...

Let's play a game! Check the date on which Gabe claimed to be an "evolutionist". Check the date of his postings on Pharyngula. Now, attempt to feign surprise.

It is a very difficult game.

However, this does prove conclusively that he was never serious, and has been doing this only to stir people up. As such, we haven't been engaging in a dialogue with him, except possibly when talking about old games. (???)

Realizing this makes me really glad that we all had stuff to do in our lives besides follow the comment threads here, because eesh.

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