Saturday, August 15, 2009

On the Topic of Race and Memetic Evolution

Had a thread derailed earlier with a guy following me from Pharyngula. Things got more interesting when he suddenly dropped the typical racist troll tone and actually asked questions. Here is where that derail gets onto its own rails.

208 comments:

1 – 200 of 208   Newer›   Newest»
Gabriel said...

Okay, as previous thread got both trolled by some crazy 'anyone saying anything is a racist' freak and that I did not get a specific response on one of my questions, I do it again.

I appreciate the response from one guy, can not remember the name, but I am a bit more curious about this.

First, lets look at some facts and make sure the right linguistics is used. 'Race' can both mean variation in one species as well as a different taxonomic group, note this.

Also, when speaking of Inferior or Superior I refer to human perception of this and our own biased view, as Human Beings, not universally as there is no such thing.

->

Now, my main question is, If we as a human population evolved to what we are today, highly intelligent, contemplative and such, When did this happen?

Further on, when this then happened, and we consider the later to be better (more advanced intellect in this case), does this not mean by definition that our previous ancestors are inferior?

Very very simple, looking at the facts and logic here, that is so, We are superior to, lets say, Homo Sapiens (we are Homo Sapien Sapien), and so forth, but between these stages, lets say one to ten, we are constantly changing before coming to the definition we use for these various ancestors. As a graphical point.......

(I am just winging it here a bit so you get a picture of what I mean, please dont put much into this example)

-> Homo Erectus
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
-> Homo Sapien

Now I ignored all others FOR THIS EXAMPLE, so for the mother of God, please dont even MENTION it as then I will compltely ignore you as a fool.

Now, between X and Z (Homo Erectus and Sapien in THIS MADE UP SCENARIO) we got stages of change, defined as 1 to 10, wouldn't this mean that if you are 8, you would be 'superior' to 2 if we speak of a specific area, such as intellect being more advanced?


I do find it funny that you can not have a open dialouge about this without 1. People call you racist, and 2. People refuse to respond and actually go into it ending with 'you are wrong racist scum' and run away.. Very odd. I find this a very interesting field of study.

Opinions from people that have some knowledge?

Gabriel

Bronze Dog said...

Okay, on with answers to questions:

Now, my main question is, If we as a human population evolved to what we are today, highly intelligent, contemplative and such, When did this happen?

We became Homo Sapiens ~200,000 years ago. That was when we got to about our current level of biological groundwork.

Further on, when this then happened, and we consider the later to be better (more advanced intellect in this case), does this not mean by definition that our previous ancestors are inferior?

Our previous non-Sapiens ancestors didn't have as much neural "density" we did. IIRC, Neanderthals had a whole billiard ball more total brain volume, but not as many connections between individual neurons.

Very very simple, looking at the facts and logic here, that is so, We are superior to, lets say, Homo Sapien (we are Homo Sapien Sapien), and so forth, but between these stages, lets say one to ten, we are constantly changing before coming to the definition we use for these various ancestors. As a graphical point.......

[snip]

Now, between X and Z (Homo Erectus and Sapien in THIS MADE UP SCENARIO) we got stages of change, defined as 1 to 10, wouldn't this mean that if you are 8, you would be 'superior' to 2 if we speak of a specific area, such as intellect being more advanced?


Using neurological complexity, the later stages are "superior" to earlier ones, but only because human evolution went the direction of increasing complexity. We haven't necessarily made any new strides since 200,000 years ago. In recent history, of course, the development of technology has removed many pressures of natural selection. For example, we don't need as much raw memory if we can store memories externally in books or distribute knowledge among specialized members of a group.

djfav said...

"Okay, as previous thread got both trolled by some crazy 'anyone saying anything is a racist' freak..."

How does it feel to be trolled, troll?

Gabriel said...

Using neurological complexity, the later stages are "superior" to earlier ones, but only because human evolution went the direction of increasing complexity. We haven't necessarily made any new strides since 200,000 years ago. In recent history, of course, the development of technology has removed many pressures of natural selection. For example, we don't need as much raw memory if we can store memories externally in books or distribute knowledge among specialized members of a group.

You can not seriousy say there is no 'new strides' for 200k years?

Between 10 000BCE to (-) 195 000 we have a dozen groups dying out as well as changing, so saying that H. Sapien did not 'necessarily' change is silly, in my view. Do you have any basis for this?

For example, was 'Mitochondrial Eve', physically, equal to us in intelligence?


And if you want racial matters, we do have the hardworking Scandinavians, and I am NOT saying they are superior, but if you compare them to lets say Africans or southern Europeans, whom are slow and lazy (I travelled the world I have SEEN and EXPERIENCED THIS, so this is handon information), is there not a link here?

I am not saying SKIN COLOR, but rather, somehow, the evolution of the people? South America is poor and the working culture is horrible, these people stem from Southern Europeans, whom are similar (lazy, slow etc), whiles hardworking and fast, skilled etc Scandinavians come to mind here?

Japanese are hardworking and dedicated, and it is interesting that they are very similar in culture to Scandinavians, trusthworthy, good people and so forth (personal experience of the world talking here, you may have your own subjective opinion, but you also got facts showing these people being hardworkng, long living and good people), so these racial issues with redneck racists seem to have SOME basis.. Not that these rednecks can can read or write, hahah, but you get the point, we speaking on the whole here.

djfav said...

You're still a fucking racist.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabriel:

You can not seriousy say there is no 'new strides' for 200k years?

We're talking about a very specific trait. And of course, even if such an extra stride happened, I don't see any evidence it's reached fixation in any ethnic group.

Between 10 000BCE to (-) 195 000 we have a dozen groups dying out as well as changing, so saying that H. Sapien did not 'necessarily' change is silly, in my view. Do you have any basis for this?

If you have evidence of a neurological improvement, present it. I am only aware of climate-based changes in the human genome as well as bottlenecks among migrating groups.

Of course, you neglect memes as a likely explanation for those changes. Not all types of changes require a genetic component.

For example, was 'Mitochondrial Eve', physically, equal to us in intelligence?

My guess would be that she'd be pretty close, if not equal.

And if you want racial matters, we do have the hardworking Scandinavians, and I am NOT saying they are superior, but if you compare them to lets say Africans or southern Europeans, whom are slow and lazy (I travelled the world I have SEEN and EXPERIENCED THIS, so this is handon information), is there not a link here?

That's what's known as anecdotal experience, which is worthless in science as anything more than a lead to investigate something. You are not an infallible god who can't be fooled by his perceptions and biases.

And again, you've completely ignored memetic evolution as an explanation: It's more likely to be cultural than genetic. As long as the situation has culture as a possible explanation, the situation is uncontrolled.

I am not saying SKIN COLOR, but rather, somehow, the evolution of the people? South America is poor and the working culture is horrible, these people stem from Southern Europeans, whom are similar (lazy, slow etc), whiles hardworking and fast, skilled etc Scandinavians come to mind here?

Emphasis added, since it seems you've provided a much more plausible explanation in your own rant than genetics. You've contradicted your own conclusion.

Japanese are hardworking and dedicated, and it is interesting that they are very similar in culture to Scandinavians, trusthworthy, good people and so forth (personal experience of the world talking here, you may have your own subjective opinion, but you also got facts showing these people being hardworkng, long living and good people), so these racial issues with redneck racists seem to have SOME basis.. Not that these rednecks can can read or write, hahah, but you get the point, we speaking on the whole here.

That basis is, as you've pointed out, yet ignore, culture. Culture is an amazingly powerful force in shaping a human's lifestyle. That is precisely why your conclusions about "race" are untenable until you get into the DNA. Without solid genetic evidence, there's no basis for a conclusion in genetics.

Gabriel said...

If you have evidence of a neurological improvement, present it. I am only aware of climate-based changes in the human genome as well as bottlenecks among migrating groups.

Interesting, So you claim (and most likely I agree in most parts) that the general change is physical manifestation of enviroment, but does not relate, at all, to our intellect?


But if you look in the big whole, you get the problem with 'do we not evolve anymore then, as with this logic we will not become more intelligent', and the 'this means our ancestors where equal in intelligence, as we do not change today', which contradicts known science. Agree?

You ctually made a refernece to us becoming less intelligent (memory less extensive etc), which is very interesting, I can see a, lets say cat, lose its ability to comprehend danger with living with humans for to long and eventually become 'less' evolved (in this sense) whiles leaving it (cat race) would make it completely incompetent and die out because of loss of trait, agreed, so it is an interesting comment.

djfav said...

Aw, that's cute. Now he's pretending BD agrees with him by implication.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabriel:

Interesting, So you claim (and most likely I agree in most parts) that the general change is physical manifestation of enviroment, but does not relate, at all, to our intellect?

Yes. Most of our genetic changes were probably things relating to climate, local diseases, and such.

But if you look in the big whole, you get the problem with 'do we not evolve anymore then, as with this logic we will not become more intelligent', and the 'this means our ancestors where equal in intelligence, as we do not change today', which contradicts known science. Agree?

Evolution "slows" when you ease the pressures of natural selection. That's what technology and culture do. That's pretty much why we invented them.

You ctually made a refernece to us becoming less intelligent (memory less extensive etc), which is very interesting, I can see a, lets say cat, lose its ability to comprehend danger with living with humans for to long and eventually become 'less' evolved (in this sense) whiles leaving it (cat race) would make it completely incompetent and die out because of loss of trait, agreed, so it is an interesting comment.

I don't expect it to do anything crazy like that movie Idiocracy (which was going to get a mention in one post where I'd speculate on the future of human evolution), but with selective pressures removed, where just about anyone can have kids, natural selection has limited ability to help beneficial traits achieve fixation.

In short, we don't have nature testing us nearly as hard as it used to. Thanks to technology and culture, just about anyone can pass the survival and reproduction test evolution works by.

We've moved heavily into memetic evolution instead of old fashioned genetic evolution: The evolution of culture and science. The survival of a population is seldom determined by genetics, but on the resources and ideas (memes) the population holds.

The world superpowers are superpowers because we educate the population in the most useful memes and have thinkers making new ones. If we started a eugenics program instead, it'd do just about squat.

djfav said...

And by the way...

"...anyone saying anything is a racist..."

Nice stawman, asshole.

djfav said...

"I do find it funny that you can not have a open dialouge about this without 1. People call you racist, and 2. People refuse to respond and actually go into it ending with 'you are wrong racist scum' and run away.. Very odd. I find this a very interesting field of study."

Notice that some people have and are responding politely. I, however, do not consider the troll's remarks worthy of a polite response, nor should they be included in any open dialogue, especially since they are given without even the slightest bit of evidence. The troll merely rationalizes its prejudices, which is akin to masturbation. Worse yet, it does so in public.

djfav said...

And who the fuck is running away? The racist troll has been quiet for an awfully long time now. Perhaps it has better things to do, like cower under a bridge, crying while masturbating. Nobody understands poor, deluded, racist troll.

djfav said...

I'd just like to highlight one more thing...

"I do find it funny that you can not have a open dialouge about this without 1. People call you racist..."

I mean, racist troll really is dense. You'd think maybe it could eventually take a hint, but no. It just goes on masturbating in full view. It never occurred to racist troll that maybe, just maybe, racist troll really is racist.

Akusai said...

One word for racist troll from the world of anthropology: there is, simply put, no such thing as "race." It is a cultural construct we made to organize ourselves into groups (or, perhaps more importantly, organize other people into groups) based on trivial phenotypic phenomena. At the genetic level, however, there isn't a single trait that you can single out and say "This belongs to only race X and never to any other races," or "People in race X never have this."

In other words, at the genetic level, it is completely impossible to know a person's "race." Culture shapes our perception of our phenotypic differences. It shapes what differences we notice and what differences we find important.

In America before the segregation divided us neatly into "white" and "black," "Polish," "Italian," "Irish," "German," and so forth were all considered distinct races. The culture shifted our perspective of our out-group and now, in most places in America, all of those groups are just "white."

Race, biologically speaking, is a complete myth.

djfav said...

Of course, all of this was explained to racist troll on the pharyngula thread.

Racist troll don't read too good.

MWchase said...

Southern Europe? My 3.9 GPA and I would like to have a word with you over what you said about my heritage.

King of Ferrets said...

What Pharyngula thread did he come from, anyway? There's too many of them and they're too long for me to keep up with them...

djfav said...

The stupid begins here.

djfav said...

And since we're on the topic of race, I'll just leave this here.

St.B said...

Lollers, I clickered, Ohhh yes I did.

Dark Jaguar said...

Firstly, Gab you are being racist by definition. Secondly, you have no scientific basis for thinking any particular mental change took place. We know that skin tones and bone structure changed, for example, but we don't know of any mental changes.

Oh, and I'll have to point a few things out. Neanderthals, from what I've read, are not an ancestor of humans. They are a seperate branch that existed while humans did, though they died out shortly after we arrived in Europe.

Also, I think that for us to actually lose or "degrade", as in have certain mental features go vestigial, there would have to be some advantage for that. The advantage for loosing flight, for example, is that you don't need to eat as much food. Same with pretty much anything like eyes or our appendix way back when humans had a hard time getting food. Now however our ability to get food, in first world countries anyway, I think would remove this pressure. In other words, I don't think we're slowly going to devolve into monkeys with just enough mental accuity to use computers.

Saying "africans are lazy" is pretty racist. You say you "observed it yourself" but I suspect your bias just colored it all. Let me guess, you saw someone sitting in a chair and said to yourself "why isn't he working?". I see people sitting in chairs all the time, heck I do. Also, you may see more people resting for purely physical reasons. It's HOT in Africa you idiot. They more or less HAVE to take naps and rest in the afternoon to avoid heat stroke. There's also the very poor nature of the nations, as a general rule, in Africa.

Without having specifically studied anyone's life in extent, you can't just label them "lazy". In other words, I am using the cliche "You don't KNOW him, you can't JUDGE him." However, it's entirely apt here. You watched a couple of people here and there for a few minutes at a time in Africa with your bias already in place and decided that was proof the entire race is lazy? Try applying some proper scientific controls and come back to us. You are racist.

Bronze Dog said...

On the topic of heat in Africa, since Gabe mentioned southern Europe, I feel I should mention the Siesta meme. Those cultures that have it take a nap during the middle of the day to prevent sunstroke. Someone from a more temperate climate or used to working in air conditioned offices might mistake that healthy behavior for laziness.

Additionally, one of the problems with anecdotes is that many people don't think about the things they might not be seeing. As far as I know, Gabe, you might have just looked at the street level, but didn't think to consider the people indoors who might be at work. There's plenty of alternate explanations.

I think your problem is that you're operating under a meme that goes opposite to the foundation of science: "My experiences are reliable."

Science is founded on the fallibility of observers. If we didn't have cognitive biases, incidental selection biases, flawed senses, and so forth, there'd be no need for the scientific method. We use statistical analysis to see if patterns are real or the result of random clustering. We use controls to reduce or eliminate alternate explanations.

For casual, low-stakes, small implication things, personal experience is okay as a time saver. In science, however, anecdotal evidence is only a lead into what you need to investigate, not a source you use in a conclusion.

MWchase said...

Off topic, speaking of high temperature...

Say what you will about the frozen north, but

...

*heatstroke*

(I checked the weather here against... I think where KoF is in Texas. Five degree margin between the highs, tops. Ugh...)

Dark Jaguar said...

I submit we'd need the scientific method even if our senses were perfect and we didn't have selection bias. We still would have limited exposure to events and would need to form some sort of context to test things from. As optimistic as I may be about humanity's eventual ability to alter itself, I don't think we'll ever be able to perfectly observe reality or perfectly judge what we see.

Gabriel said...

Dark Jagugar, yes, Neanderthals are part of a different lineage, good that you have some basic knowledge, but I have no idea WHAT THAT HAS TO DO WITH ANYTHING I SAID???

No one has spoken about Neanderthals (what I know of atleat) here. But sure, I can make up stuff to if that makes you feel better, DARK JAGUAR, Your a homophobe, you clearly hate homosexuals because you think that homosexuals are inferior to heterosexuals... Of course, you haven't said anything about homosexuals, but that is besides the point and irrelevant, just like you speaking of, completely randomly, Neanderthals being different breed, I will make up shit too, Welcome to the club, do I get brownie points?

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.
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Bronze Dog

I would love to have a private discussion with you about this, sharing knowledge and such (as I am so extremely well travelled and know how the world and its people actually are, I would love to combine this with your clear knowledge about details of evolution and probe your mind a bit).

Please send me a line on gabrknight@gmail.com as I would like to give you a proper more detailed response as well as questions you may want to ask and thus things I would like you to share.

Gabe

Gabriel said...

Dark Jaguar
No, I did not 'watchthem for a few minutes', I lived in Africa.

Maybe your prejudiced can not be seen by yourself, I suggest you look in the mirror before making comments Like that.

Curious question, Have you lived and seen the African cultures? Asians? South American? European? North American etc?

Well.. Have you? Because I have.

King of Ferrets said...

You lived in all those places? Not visited for a week or two, lived?

No, I don't think I buy that.

Berlzebub said...

Actually, it seems that knowledge and intelligence are being interchanged too freely. A person can be intelligent, but not be knowledgable. The main reason for our advances in technology and science is that a bunch of work has already been done in those fields for the current generation to build on. Which is where "standing on the shoulders of giants" comes in.

The thing is giving a person, or group of people, access to this information. Someone living the trible life in Africa is much less likely to learn about such things than someone who gets an education in the U.S. To them, finding food and water is a much higher priority than finding out how a circuit board in a computer works.

Unless you remove the societal bias and pressures for certain groups to pursue their stereotypical niches, it's impossible to find out if any particular group is more suited to any particular mental or physical strength than another.

Dark Jaguar said...

I wasn't talking to you about neanderthals, it was meant for Bronze Dog as he's the one who brought them up. Not everything is about you.

As to how long you observed them. Please then, tell me, how long DID you live in these places? A couple of weeks, months, years? How much interaction did you have with the local population? Did you actually talk to anyone, or just occasionally see things you interpretted as proof they are lazy? Did you only count the "hits" and never the times when people didn't live up to your presumptions?

I highly doubt that. Why? It goes against the evidence. You want to change my mind, you're going to have to do better than "I saw some people that one time I was in some place". Also, you will have to manage to exclude society as an influence as BD mentioned.

Jimmy Blue said...

I would love to have a private discussion with you about this, sharing knowledge and such (as I am so extremely well travelled and know how the world and its people actually are, I would love to combine this with your clear knowledge about details of evolution and probe your mind a bit).

Aw how cute, the little racist Phileas Fogg thinks he can persuade Bronze Dog to be racist too, if only he would talk to him in private.

Gabriel said...

Dark Jaguar, yes, nice run. You spoke to ME and in the MIDDLE of it you suddenly spoke to Bronze Dog and then continued speaking to me, and when speaking to Bronze Dog, you made it sound just like you where talking to me.. You want me to quote what you said?

You are pathetic, a grown man would say 'sorry, made a mistake', but you cant even do that, just throw 'racist' out in the air and see where it falls. Please do not address me if you are not ot apologize for previous silliness and want serious communication, I doubt you are mature enough to realize your faults, so please, dont bother me, thankyou.


For the record no, I lived there for years, and you sound very racist, speaking to 'does people', you call them that? Does.. Blacks? Or just 'them' maybe? Fucking hypocrite. You did not answer, HAD YOU TRAVELLED AND SEEN ANYTHING? Or is your rant because you never done anything with your tragic life?

Hard to figure out.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe, I've already given you a very important reason I (and the scientific method) disregard anecdotal experience as evidence. Unless you're going to start speaking of controls, statistics, and distributions of genes, I don't see anything meaningful coming out of you.

The "I am perfect" enthymeme that underpins your anecdotal experience is where the problem is.

djfav said...

Oh, look who's back. The racist troll. And it seems a bit more unhinged.

Yawn.

Bronze Dog said...

Oh, and forgot to mention on the topic of Neanderthals: Yeah, I know they're an offshoot, more like an uncle/distant cousin than a grandfather. I mostly mentioned them as an example of brain volume versus density: Size alone doesn't determine intelligence.

Sorry for any confusion I caused.

djfav said...

"Please do not address me if you are not ot apologize for previous silliness and want serious communication..."

Dearest Gabriel,

I'm sorry you're a racist piece of shit. I really am.

Sincerely,

Yours Truly

P.S. Die in a fire.

King of Ferrets said...

He lived in that many different places for years each?

Yup. That's even more don't buy it.

Dark Jaguar said...

I'm fairly certain that I know who I was talking to better than you do. Sorry if I didn't communicate that clearly.

However, whatever faults you seem to find in my life (again, baseless assertions which I'm sure you'll site as something you know absolutely in the future when labelling your various encounters with those who doubt your racist claims) have no bearing at all on the validity of your claims. That's all there is to it. We have no reason at all to believe a single thing you say.

Further, I never said "does people". Aside from being grammatically confusing, all I called them was, simply, PEOPLE. Why exactly did you think I said "does people"? Specifically, I was talking about the people you yourself previously labelled. What else can I do?

Dark Jaguar said...

One other note, and to avoid confusion this IS directed at you, Gabriel.

I'm not "throwing out" the term racist and seeing if it sticks. I'm calling you, specifically, a racist because you are judging the character of people based on their race. That is, by definition, racist.

Gabriel said...

Grow up, I already poked a big comfy hole in your evolution theory as yo already been attacking it yourself.

Lets look at the FACTS you claim:

Evolution made us HUMANS become more intelligent (better), from X to Z.

When pointing his out, that during X to Y, you would have to have levels, 1, 2, 3, 4 and so forth as his does not happen in ONE GO. No, evoutionism says it goes SLOWLY. So we accept that.

NOW you say its NOT SO and humans do not evolve, and apparently we go from none human to WHAM!!! humans (black, white etc), no evolution.

Amazing making you screw your own views up. Of course, now you gona deny that or ignore it, we know this. Tragic tragic.

djfav said...

Racist troll is officially unhinged. Note the use of CAPS LOCK, triple exclamation points, and typos. Very persuasive.

djfav said...

Also note the complete lack of reading comprehension on display in the following claim.

"NOW you say its NOT SO and humans do not evolve, and apparently we go from none human to WHAM!!! humans (black, white etc), no evolution."

Again, nice strawman, asshole.

djfav said...

And then there's this:

"Amazing making you screw your own views up. Of course, now you gona deny that or ignore it, we know this. Tragic tragic."

Blaming us for his complete lack of basic reading comprehesion. That's just adorable.

MWchase said...

To reiterate: by around the time of mitochondrial Eve, it's likely that selection pressures affecting intelligence did so regardless of the particulars of the environment. The point of memetics is that intelligence allows us to survive regardless of our genes and the environment, to an extent that has been steadily increasing. All environments present challenges.

It sounds to me like you're trying to draw a trend-line correlating 'similarity' with our ancestors to intelligences, but that... that really...

Wait a sec... chimpanzees have pale skin.

Random "No, wait, comparing black people to 'apes' is wrong on more levels than I realized" moment aside...

Consider that, far in the past, our ancestors had no eyes. More recently, they had two. Your 'trend' setup makes two predictions: between having no eyes and two eyes, they had one eye; eventually, as we resemble them less and less, we will grow more eyes.

That is an analogous scenario, right?

(I mean, disregarding that the entire reason humans are so wide-ranged is that intelligence eliminates selection pressures, slowing down the process of natural selection, while encouraging genetic drift.)

Or perhaps, since the ancestors that developed eyes were small, eventually we'll all have freakishly huge manga eyes.

Gabriel said...

Once again, no one wants to respond, I reduce it, make it easier for you.

DID human ancestor evolve a higher intelligence in ONE MOMENT (immediate) or in STEPS (gradually)?

Easy question.... Or to uncomfortable?

djfav said...

The racist troll seems to think that if we agree that the evolution of human intelligence occurred stepwise, then racist troll has somehow won the argument. Again, racist troll is trying to play a game of gotcha wherein we agree with racist troll by implication.

Yawn.

MWchase said...

There's no reason to think it occurred continuously, even if it did happen in steps. That said...

Either you're proposing genetic differences, which would be swamped by intra-racial diversity*, or you're proposing memetic differences, which should operate independently of skin color.

Or, look at it like this: you propose to draw some kind of trend-line through a hypothetical data-set, and say "this is the only way it can be". Believe me, if I instruct you to take such predictive and descriptive expertise to the stock market, it is not because I expect you to do well.

*The differences between differences within and between groups are rather tricky to explain tersely.

Gabriel said...

If people would stop talking about things I never mentioned and answer my question, It could be fun. Lets try again, and just respond, shall we?


Did Human beings evolve their higher intelligence by a slow process which most evolutionist always advocate, or by a rappid process making us intelligent immediately?

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Thas all I asked, you speak of races and all kind of weird stuff, self-projection I assume, but please, could you respond?

Bronze Dog said...

Been out shopping for apartment stuff today.

Gabe: Did Human beings evolve their higher intelligence by a slow process which most evolutionist always advocate, or by a rappid process making us intelligent immediately?

Slow process. Bear in mind, of course, this is only speaking of neurological capacity.

I think it'll be fun to see where he thinks he's leading us. My current guess is that he'll use some frivolous phenotype similarities between one group of modern humans and our collective distant ancestors to make the unwarranted assumption that because that one/those few traits remained, therefore evolution ground to a halt for that group.

Gabriel said...

Bronze, good, okay with that in mind, let me then ask you this:

So we evolved and become, as I will for future reference define it as, Superior (higher intelligence I now denote as superior compared to lower intelligence), we have something like this;


HumanX = Us Today
HumanABC etc = Earlier Ancestors (number goes upwards)

HumanA - Lower Intelligence
HumanB - Low Intelligence + 10
HumanC - Low Intelligence + 10
HumanD - Low Intelligence + 10
HumanE - More advanced Intellect + 20
HumanF - More advanced Intellect + 20
HumanG - Advanced Mind +5
HumanH - Advanced Mind +5
Human Evolution Continues - Ad infinitum
->
HumanX - Todays Intellect
Human? - FUTURE????



Could this be in the lines of our evolution then? Just as an example of our minds evolution?

djfav said...

Must. Resist. The urge. To parody that list.

Must...Resist...

St.B said...

Dj, don't do it,lmao, NOOO... don't you dare. I think the failure of Gabe to remove linear patterns will make this a never ending (non) debate. He insists on extrapolating that intelligence, neurological pathways, and knowledge are one thing. As mentioned earlier, it is accepted that base intellect has been within the species for millenia "ad infinitum" , we just have the pathways and knowledge now to better use and abuse said intellects.

I find it annoying when the questions are answered then shoved aside as if off topic. It would be better had he said he neither comprehended the flaw of his question in the first place nor the comprehensive and well versed answers.

djfav said...

"Dj, don't do it,lmao, NOOO... don't you dare."

I want to so badly, but it would involve a lot of racial slurs ranked arbitrarily on the racist troll intelligence scale.

Bronze Dog said...

Yes, human evolution so far has involved increasing neurological development. We are presently at the highest level known to date. What's your point?

St.B said...

ROTFL, he's going to start equating that to intelligence, which he is using in place of the word knowledge... I can feel it, my tinfoil hat is spectacular, I have E.S.P., heh.

Dark Jaguar said...

Where's the contradiction?

The genetic diversity of skin colors is rather recent on the time frame of human existance, from us leaving Africa to populate other areas of the globe. Further, it wasn't too long, again on the scale of total human existance, before we eventually "met" again and now we're currently breeding across previously seperated populations. There was barely any time at all for any intellectual changes to occur. There was only enough time for skin color and a few other traits to develop, relatively "easy" in comparison to something like intellect. Before humans took off out of Africa we'd pretty much already reached the level of intellect we have now. So no, there is no reason at all to expect that different populations would have different intelligences. Not enough time apart.

There's no denying that it could, potentially, occur. However there's no evidence it has and good reason to doubt it did.

As to whether or not we're STILL evolving intelligence, well there'd have to be strong selection pressure.

Further, heck I've been reading The Blind Watchmaker and I'm reading a chapter that applies to this very issue of exacting "gradual" change like you're suggesting. Not only do scientists not think that each new generation would net a single plus 1 improvement to intellect, but that idea itself contradicts the notion of what natural selection actually IS. There would be mutations of all sorts across the vast time frame, some of which would be harmful and some would be beneficial, but there's a mimimum point where the benefit is so small that there just wouldn't be enough selective pressure to force it. The "graduation" idea in this sort of ridiculous form is something no evolutionist believes. There would be less graduated slightly "bigger" mutations with more noticable results that natural selection could act upon. Maybe not noticable by us, but noticable across generations.

What you don't realize this entire time is that it doesn't matter how slowly or quickly humans attained their intellect. It doesn't matter that it very likely was a result of us being a seperate population from other primates. This seperation happened too long ago over too long a time for the much more recent spread of humanity globally to be any real consideration in it. We've remained fairly static, and this is to be expected. The "arms race" between predator and prey is not something that's eternal, but which explodes for several generations until it gets to a point where equilibrium is reached between being a better catcher/escaper and costs in things such as energy and successful mating, at which point it stays static until something upsets that balance. There's longer periods of balance than explosive evolution, so we're more likely to be in a period of balance than otherwise. Intelligence was very likely the result of one of those explosive spirals (though it's nature is still speculated on) but it's over now.

If you have any evidence besides "I saw this lazy guy once" you should present it. Otherwise, there's no reason at all to listen to you.

Gabriel said...

Yes, human evolution so far has involved increasing neurological development. We are presently at the highest level known to date. What's your point?

I just want to make sure I see your view in the right light. Is my previous poor example a general idea of what we are talking about or you wish to correct it before we go on?

.
.
.
Where's the contradiction?

The genetic diversity of skin colors is rather recent on the time frame of human existance, from us leaving Africa to populate other areas of the globe. Further, it wasn't too long, again on the scale of total human existance, before we eventually "met" again and now we're currently breeding across previously seperated populations. There was barely any time at all for any intellectual changes to occur.


I have no idea why you speak of skin color or Africa and so forth, you seem to have some personal racial issues you need to solve. I think 'strawman' is the word here, you somehow want to accuse people of racism so you make things up out of the blue, hows that working out for you? Or it could be your own self-projection of course.

djfav said...

*head desk*

Racist troll is hopeless.

MWchase said...

Other possibility: he has amnesia, and genuinely cannot remember comparing Obama to an ape and predicting "special treatment for his fellow blackies", or anything of that sort.

Jimmy Blue said...

Can I just save us all some time and cut to what our pathetic racist is going to argue? OK? Good.

Racist troll is going to argue that since human intelligence (as he is using this term) has evolved to be superior (as he is using the term) to earlier ancestors then, because we all descended from ancestors in Africa, and black people are from Africa, we must be superior to them because we have evolved further than them.

How did I do racist troll? Sorry to steal your thunder. Apparently you think we haven't heard arguments like yours before.

Gabriel said...

Extra:

Yes, human evolution so far has involved increasing neurological development. We are presently at the highest level known to date. What's your point?

Bronze Dog, I want to make sure you do not change your mind further on, so if you wish to modify your belief before we continue, please do so, is there anything you do not agree with with my simple definition I previously gave?

Dark Jaguar said...

Straw man? You're the one bringing up race. You referred people in Africa as lazy. What else am I supposed to draw from that except that you think black people are lazy? Heck you're the one talking about skin color. Did you forget?

More to the point, you failed to address a single point I made.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe, can you hurry up and make a point? If it's something other than what we've been suspecting, that's all the more reason to just blurt it out.

MWchase said...

Technically, he brought up race, then tried to backpedal.

I mean, I respect that he implicitly acknowledges his own beliefs as untenable, hence his attempts to completely ignore his earlier comments, but this is pretty tiresome.

St.B said...

Density level 10 has been achieved. I keep thinking it has to be a situation of knowingly doing so and actual trolling. (My mother has warned me I give people too much credit on occasion.) It can be trying to be a skeptic yet such a freaking dreamer.

Sara said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dark Jaguar said...

There's also the implicit assumption he makes when he calls all of us racists just for countering his own claims about race that we are all, I suppose, white.

MWchase said...

I'm the wrong kind of white. Where does that put me in this argument?

And again, I think he's saying we're racists because we "keep on bringing up the subject of race", even though that's more or less the point of this thread, and he brought it up in the first place.

djfav said...

I wonder what Sara had to say. Anybody catch it before it went down the memory hole?

St.B said...

Dj, you doofus, lol, get out of my head. I wanted to know toooooooo.

Laser Potato said...

"Or perhaps, since the ancestors that developed eyes were small, eventually we'll all have freakishly huge manga eyes."
What if we wind up with squinty Kenshiro eyes instead?

MWchase said...

Then we wind up becoming cave-dwelling albinos. With no vision, the internet will become... different.

St.B said...

I scoff at your bid of Kenshiro, I'm going all in with Hentai and Hello Kitty.

djfav said...

"I scoff at your bid of Kenshiro, I'm going all in with Hentai and Hello Kitty."

Rule 34?

Bronze Dog said...

Seems Sara was Gabriel, given her post. It's facepalmtastic, and coming up, copied from my email, with my commentary:

It is clear that none of you can handle this debate, you continuing going of topic clearly because you fear the outcome of a serious debate (that you lose).

The whole reason they were mocking you was because you weren't doing anything original, aside from lightening up your tone.

That is sad, I given Dog a chance, you seemed to honestly want to give it a go, but now you clearly go astray, start talking about off-topic things, and all others are trolling more then actually saying anything clearly showing their ignorance on the topic.

Asking you to get on with it while you stall is going off topic?

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.
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Was this really necessary?

Yes, I wanted to show you that your view is slightly twisted, you do think, by your own admission, that our ancestors (using higher intelligence as our basis) are inferior, yet you continue to state you are not a racist, and they are not inferior, yet oyu admit, now, they are inferior and.. boink boink a big blurr, it is like you dont understand what you are saying.

You have no reading comprehension ability, do you? Our evolutionary ancestors before we got into the vicinity homo sapiens were inferior in those terms. What does this have to do with modern humans?

I just wanted you to tell me WHEN these less intelligent people lived, and if you had geographic data, you never gave that to me, seemingly you did know, but did not Want to give it to me, like you where ashamed of it somehow.

Interparagraph break. Probably up until about ~200,000 years ago, like I said a while ago in the previous thread. In Africa, most likely. Of course, as the skeptic, I don't need to back up anything with data. You're the guy advocating an idea, so you should be providing the data and using it as a basis for your arguments.

If you do, now, want to supply it for me, and others (other bloggers here might need the info as they clearly are limited in their intelligence and/or understanding:

Why me? Why can't you?

Can you give a general timeframe when these, lets call them inferior to make it easy, Ancestors lived? That is, the people with LESS intelligence then us: 5k years ago? 10k etc? Stoneage? What cultures? Etc? Do you have any graphs?

Not my fault you came to the thread unprepared and forgot the timeframe I gave in the first thread.

And of course, if you do not want to talk about this, sure, give up if you want to, I just wanted to open your minds a bit, make you less close minded. I am the ne with open mind wanting to learn more about this. You seem very less wanting to to this ,wich is sad.

Funny, you come in advocating a viewpoint different from ours, we ask you for the basis of this, the point of disagreement with the mainstream, and suddenly we're the ones who need to answer questions?

Leaves me to wonder if you fizzled out when we predicted your line of argument and cut you off at the pass.

djfav said...

*face palm*

MWchase said...

Evolving to be like hentai characters might actually be useful. While the fertility rate would go down, everybody would be much more resistant to physical trauma. As a result, serious inroads are made into the problems of overpopulation and violent crime. Many new scientific discoveries would be made. Ideally, orgone power would replace fossil fuels, further easing the strain on earth's resources. Supposing a significant portion of scientists and engineers remained committed to raising the world-wide standard of living, mankind could enter into an era of squelchy decadence.

Now, I kind of visualize orgone power working like scream or laugh power in Monsters Inc., except without the invasion of privacy, and the other... obvious difference.

And now that I've overthought everthing forever, get on with it, Gabe =P

St.B said...

Douche Bag of the Year Award goes tooooooo… Gabe!! And his equally illiterate and tiny brained alter ego SARA!! Let’s give them a hand ladies and germs.

So now that is totally clear it is a troll and no reason to give it any respect what’s so ever… I will dismiss any evolutionary questions it attempted to ask and say, “Gabe, you’re a moron.” While you were seemingly trying to grasp the science, of the questions you posed, I avoided lambasting you on your horrific English usage. You stated you were U.S. and British educated and went on to brag of it. (Your cosmopolitan life that also had you living in various African locales.) Here’s some news for you, your syntax is detestable, your spelling frightening, and your grammar is sub par to the point I would be surprised you had achieved to garner yourself a high school diploma. Then to carry on and post yourself as Sara, NO SOCK PUPPETS ALLOWED! Goof, you didn’t even have the wherewithal to make it sound like another person, you just carried on with your lame arguments and generalized blabber.

Damn, he’s not even a good enough troll for MySpace, I weep, I weep. Dj, hold me, I can’t take it,,, dear Jeebus, send us a worthy troll.

St.B said...

MW, what’s all this.. blah blah blah, HENTAI, pish. In my world only the males go the way of the tentacle, heh. (Not about breeding numbers, just about practicing the breeding.) Woo Hoo.

djfav said...

I said Rule 34! This thread is now about Hello Kitty porn.

St.B said...

^5 !! Dj and I again derailed BD, lol. Hell ewwww KittY!! *wink wink*

djfav said...

/thread

Bronze Dog said...

Let's not, guys.

So, Gabe, how about you save the thread from that by posting a rationale other than "Modern Africans probably look like ancient Africans on the surface, therefore we're obviously more biologically advanced because we look different on the surface and evolutionary trends never end when circumstances change."

MWchase said...

I wasn't talking about actual breeding, just addressing the question of pregnancy.

In any case, such a change would be problematic, because it would imply a much greater phenotypic diversity than is currently present. The only way something like that would happen without being caused by eugenics or catastrophe, is if humans were replaced by simulacra that used a morphogenetic field. Only then would our phenome be sufficiently extensible and modular.

Remember, Gabe, all it takes to distract people from our crazed rantings is a reasoned argument =D

St.B said...

*sigh* Pishtosh, takes more than that to distract some of us from shex stuff. Ok, back to attempting to be an adult.

If Gabe attempts to equate a visual of a person to the inherent intelligence and/or "so called level" of evolutionary advancement, (Gabe's definition), that's already a fail. If that were true then things like phrenology would be high science. Lol, now someone smack me for making far reaching analogies and semi off topic tripe. ;)

MWchase said...

I didn't mean that it would distract the ranters. The best he can hope for is getting the attention of the rantees.

Also, under such a visual system, would tanning affect one's intelligence?

St.B said...

Only if you conceptualize the radiation and potential melanomas as causation for brain dysfunction, which it just may since you'd have to consider their decision making abilities. (Stop looking at my tan you racist intellectual.) I jest. Tan lines make me smarter, like seriously.

Dark Jaguar said...

That's annoying. The guy leaves without addressing a single thing I brought up. I can't even call that a victory, just sad.

St.B said...

My tinfoil detector is tingling, "He'll be backkkkk."

Bronze Dog said...

If he does come back, I feel I should ask a question he should be able to answer: When the people who would eventually become the ancestors of the new ethnic groups left Africa, did the Africans stop having babies?

Dunc said...

I've been deliberately avoiding this thread, but I really must say:

Can you give a general timeframe when these, lets call them inferior to make it easy, Ancestors lived? That is, the people with LESS intelligence then us: 5k years ago? 10k etc? Stoneage? What cultures?

Jesus motherloving Christ, what a clueless tool. Translation: "I don't know the first fucking thing about human evolution. Or history. Or anthropology."

The most recent "human" with (arguably) less cognitive capacity than modern humans was, of course, homo (sapiens) neanderthalis. Even they were probably smarter than our troll here though...

Gabriel said...

Please explain why the western )white or controlled by whites) are objewctively superior to others?

Please explain why we create oomputers, cars, medicine and all other technologies whiles they do nothing? Please give details to the reason for this.

To correct some other ignorant bloob, the asians are not superior, they have STOLEN our tecnology, this is known history and nothingf strange, the japanese are famaous foe their espionage, nothing strange here, but it does further another question?

As the asian could steal our tecnology and make similar and even improve on certain areas, does this mean our original intelligence have be ome skewed? As genetically, however it is, they did not create anything, WE made all the tecnologies, medicines etc, they had to STEAL IT to make it and understand it, it is interesting.

But I know hyou guys hav not seen anything, travelled anywhere and know nothing, you sit infront of internet and fit tells oyu the truth, why travel, right? So obviouslty I am wrong.. even with all the hisotoric facts I just gave... so.. Anyone wan tt o explain why the WHITE MAN evolved such advanced societies and none-white stayed pimitve? anyone? anyone... ?

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe's going critical.

Please explain why the western )white or controlled by whites) are objewctively superior to others?

It isn't.

Please explain why we create oomputers, cars, medicine and all other technologies whiles they do nothing? Please give details to the reason for this.

Gabe apparently never picks up a newspaper. Last I heard, we were behind on stem cell research.

To correct some other ignorant bloob, the asians are not superior, they have STOLEN our tecnology, this is known history and nothingf strange, the japanese are famaous foe their espionage, nothing strange here, but it does further another question?

Even if they did "steal" it, the fact that they can understand it kind of undermines anything even remotely resembling a point you're trying to make with this.

Of course, we had to "steal" the secret of gunpowder and rocketry from them much earlier.

As the asian could steal our tecnology and make similar and even improve on certain areas, does this mean our original intelligence have be ome skewed? As genetically, however it is, they did not create anything, WE made all the tecnologies, medicines etc, they had to STEAL IT to make it and understand it, it is interesting.

Are you actually saying that, say, airplanes exist because the Wright brothers were genetically predisposed to be aeronautical engineers?

But I know hyou guys hav not seen anything, travelled anywhere and know nothing, you sit infront of internet and fit tells oyu the truth, why travel, right? So obviouslty I am wrong.. even with all the hisotoric facts I just gave... so.. Anyone wan tt o explain why the WHITE MAN evolved such advanced societies and none-white stayed pimitve? anyone? anyone... ?

Awfully presumptuous, aren't you? Seems a rather convenient assumption.

You also apparently have about as much memory as that urban legend says about goldfish: Culture, non-uniform distribution of resources and inspiration, and so on. You speak as if I didn't bring that up immediately after meeting you. I even asked for you to control for those factors, but instead, here you are, once again wielding one of the most anti-science memes known to man as if it were a club.

"I, Gabriel, am an infallible god! My perceptions and memory are absolutely reliable and incapable of being fooled! That's why I can sit here and idly make holy dictations about genetics despite having precisely zero evidence! Anyone who disagrees with me shall be ridiculed for not blindly accepting my decrees!"

Pardon me if I don't bow before your stone idol. So, then, genetic evidence or shut up.

Bronze Dog said...

The short version of Gabriel's apparent conclusion: "Environment and upbringing have precisely zero effect on a person's abilities, and by extension, no effect on societies. DNA dictates what you had for breakfast this morning."

Dunc said...

WE made all the tecnologies, medicines etc, they had to STEAL IT to make it and understand it, it is interesting. [...] Anyone wan tt o explain why the WHITE MAN evolved such advanced societies and none-white stayed pimitve? anyone? anyone... ?

That's utter balls. There were sophisticated societies all over the Middle and Far East while we Europeans were still living in mud huts and practising cannibalism. Ever heard of the Indus Valley Civilisation? How about fucking Egypt, or Nubia, or Babylon, or the Hittites? Who invented the decimal system? Gunpowder? Printing? Precise timekeeping? Mathematical astronomy? The segmented arch bridge? Agriculture? Etc, etc, etc...

If anybody's been stealing other people's technology and passing it off as their own, it's us Europeans.

Bronze Dog said...

Actual serious question that should tell Gabriel just how much I think I've been generously overestimating him until now:

If I were to hop into a time machine, abduct the Wright brothers in their infancy and give them to a tribe who lead a stone age nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle, would there be an airplane flying over, say, the Serengeti, instead of over Kittyhawk?

If not, why not?

Gabriel said...

Hahahha, THIS is the evidence that you never actually travelled or have any experience of the world, you sit infront of a computer and 'know' how the world is.

Wow, EGYPT.. I been to egypt.. a third world country . .VERY VERY amazing place.. WOW the TECHNOLOGY they have.. ooohhh. .Mind to explain?

Bronze Dog said...

Funny. Gabriel skips right past the whole point and a very, very, simple question that destroys the whole premise his house of cards is built upon.

Dunc said...

There's this thing called history, you fucking moron. At the time when Egpyt was a sophisticated urban civilisation building huge, complex monuments to incredible levels of precision, white Europeans were squatting in caves gnawing other people's bones for their marrow. Who's the superior civilisation there, genius?

You're supposed to be an example of the master race? You're making the rest of us look bad.

MWchase said...

"And that's another aspect of Read Or Die that wouldn't work in reality!"...

Well, I mean, Evil Beethoven had a chance, since there might be some component to "musical genius", but there's nothing like that for airplanes, insects, or electricity.

Re: intervening posts:

He's only making three-quarters of me look bad.

Bronze Dog said...

Who need science when you can just travel around to gain the superhuman ability to see through noisy data. Forget spending money on double-blind medical trials. Just get a bunch of guys some frequent flier miles and some white labcoats. It works for Gabriel's ability to see past culture, resource distribution, upbringing, environment, war, and so forth so that we can know with Absolute Certainty it's genetics. If it works for that, it should work for people who want to know what's effective against cancer.

So screw science classes and research, hop on an airplane!

Gabriel said...

Once Again, EGYPT, the 'highly advanced society', what did you have to say about it? Never been there? Should I provide pictures? Mindou, its not much to see mostly.. Mudhuts and such, haha, the capital is a fucking joke.

AMAZING Egypt, WOW, maybe we should talk about the real world rather then your 'well this place was the best.. once... erh..'???

Why are WE the best? and THEY, egyptians, so advanced people, living in poverty mudhuts and, well, third world?

Ohhh, you not wana taljk about ijt? noo fuiny tajlking about ijt.... hahaha

Bronze Dog said...

You do realize that whites/Western culture "stole" much of their base knowledge from Egypt, right? So obviously none of our accomplishments count, since all we did was improve on it.

Of course, it's kind of pointless to bother talking with someone who thinks school and reading serve no purpose since DNA and locomotion determines a person's knowledge and intelligence.

Bronze Dog said...

I just remembered a little dialogue from a movie that pretty well characterizes Gabriel's "I'm right because I move about" premise:

"What, you think the world's flat?"
"I've traveled all over the world, and everywhere I've been, it's flat!"

Gabriel said...

Once again, a questiobn you for some reason do not want to answer: Why is the 'advanced nation of Egypt' a third world country?

You just said it was advanced? Very third world for being so advanced... Explain?

djfav said...

The ahistorical racist troll erects yet another strawman.

This is getting old.

Bronze Dog said...

It's hilarious watching Gabriel melt down like this.

His argument summarized: "Here's some very noisy data with dozens of possible common sense explanations. Because I moved around more than you did, I have magical divination powers that tell me genetics is the only one. I don't need to provide data because I am a magically Absolute Authority."

Of course, Gabriel, knowing that he's Absolutely Perfect by his law of locomotion, will ignore the answers of "war, technology trade, uneven distribution of resources, etcetera" and pretend that the Only Possible Answer is that Europeans developed a superior neurologically relevant gene. Because it's the Only Possible Answer, there's no need to back it up with genetic data or control for other factors. He knows this because he is an Absolute Authority we must all Faithfully worship. Take his word for it.

Bronze Dog said...

Also funny: For someone who claims to have THE answer for all the inequality in the world, Gabriel sure asks a lot of questions and presents so little data.

His list of tricks is getting rather short:
Argument from ignorance/lack of imagination and argument from (false) authority, with him as the unquestionable authority because he hopped on a plane and looked around some places and we should just take his word for it.

And for someone who says genetics is THE answer, it's funny that he has cited precisely zero data on the genes in question.

Gabriel said...

Facts are hard to accept when they do not fit your dogma, eh?

Once again, Why are the 'advanced' civilization of Egypt a third world one centuries behind us in technology?

They are not having a recession, nothing to resess from, third world, they are not recovering from war, they hardly have technology for modern war, stones and and sand, haha.

Please explain how the advanced nation of egypt, which you refer to it as, is so behind us? Weird isn't it?

djfav said...

I'm going to repost Dunc's previous comment. Maybe this time it will sink in.

"There's this thing called history, you fucking moron. At the time when Egpyt was a sophisticated urban civilisation building huge, complex monuments to incredible levels of precision, white Europeans were squatting in caves gnawing other people's bones for their marrow. Who's the superior civilisation there, genius?"

King of Ferrets said...

Gabe: It's not advanced relative to us NOW. In the past, however, it was much more advanced relative to Europe. Ever heard of pyramids?

Bronze Dog said...

Uh, you're just a keyword scanning troll bot, aren't you Gabriel? We've already answered with multiple possible explanations, and there are history books if you want the scientific consensus.

If you want to prove to us that Egypt is in a bad situation because of genetics, it's your job to present us with samples of Egyptian DNA versus samples from a first world country and point out a statistically significant difference.

All the stated facts in your premises (except for your unstated premise of genetic determinism) are true. The point we're trying to bludgeon into your head is that your conclusions about genetics does not follow from them.

Did you take planning lessons from the underpants gnomes?

1. Egypt is in bad condition.
2. ???
3. Profit!

Genetic data to support your genetic conclusion or shut up.

Bronze Dog said...

Perhaps I should reconsider my evaluation of Gabriel's intelligence, once again. Another way of putting his argument:

1. Bronze Dog and co. do not know in absolutely precise, excruciating detail why there is inequality in the world.
2. Therefore it's genetics because my imagination is too limited to think up other ideas.

It's exactly the same as with so many creationists we've dueled with before.

1. Bronze Dog and co. do not know in absolutely precise, excruciating detail how an IC structure like the flagellum evolved.
2. Therefore a magic man in the sky made it because my imagination's too limited to think of anything else.

Bronze Dog said...

In short, even if we didn't know anything at all, and answered every one of Gabriel's questions with "I don't know," it wouldn't support his genetics conclusion.

Why? Because, Gabriel, you can't put "I don't know" into an evidence locker for a positive assertion.

Bronze Dog said...

Oh, and I can't help but notice that he's dropped the whole stepwise evolutionary line of argument he had earlier. Methinks he chickened out when we accurately predicted where he was going with it.

Dark Jaguar said...

"They" stole it from "us"?

Did you invent a damn thing? Why are you taking credit for someone else's inventions? Because you're white so "obviously" you share the same potential? You are assuming your own conclusion.

As for "stealing" technology, no such thing. It was all shared, across, um, HUMANITY. Further, Japan is way ahead of the US in certain fields of robotics.

You think Egypt is nothing but mud huts? I doubt that. I've talked with a few people from Egypt, on a computer. A certain infrastructure needs to be in place to do that. Egypt isn't JUST pyramids.

Further, historically speaking if you are going to accuse "asians" of "stealing" computers, well, everyone else already hammered that point home.

And there's the biggest issue with your entire argument, the whole seperating into groups thing. Not ALL asians care about science. It's a minority. It's also a minority of white people, black people, etc, almost as if it was completely independant of those racial features. Some people get into science and others don't. One's upbringing and available resources play a larger role than race ever did.

We still to this day use language like "we landed on the moon" and "we've invented vaccines". It's used generally to refer to human accomplishments, but the reality is that neither I nor you have invented anything, ever. (Well, I can't speak for you, maybe you do have a few patents to your name I'm not aware of, but you certainly didn't land on the moon or invent vaccines.)

The reason to keep this important fact in mind is that you can't take personal credit for another's achievements. You are no closer to the people that invented it in terms of your "rights" to credit than anyone from Africa or Asia or Australia. You had nothing to do with it. You are as seperate from them as anyone else on the planet. You can't just INVENT an in-group and claim commradery with them. You don't know most white people, how can you claim to be "closer" to them in any way other than lineage at best? I for one would be rather insulted to have someone I never met from my ethnic group (which for the purposes of this debate I'll keep secret just to see what methods you use to "discern" it) claimed we were a "team" when I never met them. The only proper time to form any sort of thing like that is in the face of actual factual oppression FOR that specific feature, in which case the in-group is STILL not an inherant part of the race but is actually forced BY the oppressor in question, it could have been anything.

All these things escape you it seems. You START with the assumption that you and all other white people are "the same group" that must obviously share all the same mental traits, and all accomplishments at that, and work from there.

djfav said...

And racist troll keeps bragging about having traveled the world. Obviously, racist troll's experiences were tainted by his biases. What a fucking waste.

Bronze Dog said...

Excellently put, my feline friend.

Of course, that also gets to another bit of circularity in Gabriel's argument. The genius that inspired so many inventions and accomplishments don't occur in a genetic vacuum. Genius requires assistance. If someone's born with exceptional intelligence potential from his genes, it will be wasted if he doesn't have the resources. Take a pair of twins with identical DNA and put them in different circumstances. One raised in a first world country with scientifically minded parents with access to wealth, the internet, libraries, and good schools could very well grow up to be one of the giants listed along Einstein, Newton, and Darwin.

Take the other twin and raise him in a poverty stricken nation without a good information infrastructure, or even a food infrastructure, and about the most you can expect is for him to survive on his wits, using his time to find food and work, rather than unlocking the secrets of the universe.

Our prosperity is intimately tied to those factors. First world nations do well because they have good information infrastructures, the necessities of life, and provide enough free time for us. We see farther because those things allow us to stand on the shoulders of various giants that have come before. But you don't care about that because you value your past locomotion and flawed perceptive ability (the latter of which, we all have) over the scientific method.

Gabriel, however, seems to be trying to distract us from that particular fact and let him get away with asserting the Doctrine of Genetic Determinism.

So, serious question, Gabriel: If the Wright brothers were born into a tribe of hunter gathers, would they still invent the airplane?

I don't see how you can answer anything other than "yes" without demolishing your entire house of cards.

St.B said...

Lol, I am related to the Wright brothers, they are my forebears. I feel so special my family is being used for debunking troll time, heh.

I doubt Gabe will be able to cull the crap from his contentions nor see the light in your well said rebuttals. His language has fallen apart, his questions are getting evermore inane, and it seems his only skill set is to make ridiculous statements then demand answers.

BD-“So, serious question, Gabriel: If the Wright brothers were born into a tribe of hunter gathers, would they still invent the airplane?

I don't see how you can answer anything other than "yes" without demolishing your entire house of cards.”

He will not see the logic of this and either ignore it or twist it into something that reinforces his already perverted mindset.

Bronze Dog said...

Yeah. I'm continually finding I have to dumb things down further and further. I suppose that's what I get for entertaining some conversation with a guy who seems to think Nurture is a myth, and that it's 100% Nature.

It was hilarious when he, as Sara, tried to claim I had a contradiction in my view of evolution. Of course, the whole point of inventing civilization was to minimize the effects of genetic natural selection, the biggest driving force in evolution. We, of course, moved to memetic evolution, and memes (ideas) don't exist in DNA. The Wright brothers did not blueprints for an airplane in their blood. They studied the relevant problems and happened to find solutions. Science is more about hard work and research than it is about raw IQ. That's becoming truer every day as we get into finer and finer details that require more and more tests to sort out.

I suppose next, Gabriel will pull out a MENSA membership and claim entitlement to have papers published in his name on the topic, despite having collected and shown zero data to support his conclusions.

MWchase said...

I thought MENSA membership mainly indicated a willingness to shell out dues in exchange for being able to bring up the membership at any opportunity.

Actually, if that were the case, he would have already mentioned it by now.

Bronze Dog said...

Meh. It's pretty well in the same category as his talk about his travel. I've seen lots of Mensa members who can't logic their way out of a paper bag, but claim they're right because they did well on some tests or whatever that involved spotting patterns in a series of shapes or whatever they do.

A perfect score on a Mensa test, or living on every continent for a few years isn't going to conjure genetic data out of thin air or make a non-sequitur into a valid argument.

St.B said...

I “table” this question…”Can Gabe spell MENSA?” *mumble mumble*

Gabriel said...

Yes, clearly im wrong and all you are right, because your amzing defence have been 'you are wrong racist troll and 'we told you already we dont say more'.

Please, try to answer the question, STOP asserting things and make up things you claim I said or I am 'thinking', and just answer the queastions if it is so easy, eh? I dont know what you mean by 'troll', I guess its some sort of insult, weird one calling me a mythical creature, but alas, lets continue and try to ask this again, simple and easy. If you dare respond.

Question one, and easy one:

You stated earlier that Egypt and other places where highly advanced, I think all of the examples are nations that are either third world nations, or similar, now, if they where so advanced why do they not show any sign of this? Why are the population illiterate? Ignorant? Technologically inferior to us?

Now, if the United States of America, the most powerful superpower the world has ever seen, would 'collapse', meaning that our economy or military or some such would go down, and we no longer are number One, would we suddenly become ignorant? stupid? stop producing the amazing technologies we do today? medicines? No, of course not, We would lose our old marking, but we would not become backwards, So why are Egypt, The so advanced nation not showing ANY SIGNS AT ALL of their amzing abilities? The people can hardly read, they have a couple of buildings that was built thousands of years ago, WOW, gosh, to bad they cant talk about it as their linguistic is so limited.

Please explain, in detail if you can.

.
.

Question Two, as Bronze Dog complained:

No, I just asked other questions, you seemed not to be able to handle my questions. If We then, call us Number One, is better then our Ancestors, call them Number Two, lived, I think you gave a number around 200k years? They where, by your own admission, inferior (if we speak mental capacity), so does that not mean certain of us are still related to number two? Or is Everyone now, number one? You saying we do NOT have different evolutionary paths (thats tecnically rhetorical, you know they have according to evolutionists), tell me your thougts on this?

Dark Jaguar said...

Gabe, are you just ignoring us completely here? What we're doing is pointing out your questions themselves are filled with false assumptions. They are of the "When did you stop beating your wife?" variety.

You claim that ALL of Egypt is completely illiterate and devoid of creative talent? There is no basis for that. There are many literate people there, they have museums! You apparently just never took the time to meet any of them. Please explain the details of your visit there. I really want to know, assuming you are being honest, exactly how much interaction, and with who you interacted. Did you just run around at the street level or what? Are you honestly telling me that Egypt is literally nothing but mud huts and illiterate fools?

Did you ever even go here: http://www.touregypt.net/egyptmuseum/egyptian_museum.htm ?

St.B said...

http://i.current.com/images/asset/898/921/95/phpX3l9oD.jpg

OMG! Gabe is in the Death Star watching us discuss his “FAIL-ibility”. A little less Darth and a little MOAR Dark Helmet.

Linear putz, rewording the same codswallop won’t make your nonsense more palatable. Channel your inner “Schwartz” and get enlightened.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe misses the point once again:

Please, try to answer the question, STOP asserting things and make up things you claim I said or I am 'thinking', and just answer the queastions if it is so easy, eh?

The whole point is that it's not easy. The data are noisy, and you have done nothing to filter out that noise.

You stated earlier that Egypt and other places where highly advanced, I think all of the examples are nations that are either third world nations, or similar, now, if they where so advanced why do they not show any sign of this? Why are the population illiterate? Ignorant? Technologically inferior to us?

Because of many, many, socioeconomic causes. Of course, even if I answered "I don't know," it would do you no good. You've presented precisely zero genetic evidence to support a genetic cause.

Now, if the United States of America, the most powerful superpower the world has ever seen, would 'collapse', meaning that our economy or military or some such would go down, and we no longer are number One, would we suddenly become ignorant? stupid? stop producing the amazing technologies we do today? medicines?

If the collapse was enough to destroy our infrastructure and we were forced to spend all our time searching for food or infighting for resources, of course our descendants wouldn't have the education we enjoy today.

No, of course not, We would lose our old marking, but we would not become backwards...

And you expect me to believe this? What would prevent a collapsed US from backsliding? Our DNA? Does out DNA dictate our scientific progress?

So why are Egypt, The so advanced nation not showing ANY SIGNS AT ALL of their amzing abilities? The people can hardly read, they have a couple of buildings that was built thousands of years ago, WOW, gosh, to bad they cant talk about it as their linguistic is so limited.

Please explain, in detail if you can.


For the same reasons I gave for a US collapse tearing us down. Socioeconomic stresses of great variety over the centuries.

How do you explain the Egyptian culture being in a worse position, and what evidence do you have? You're the one claiming to have THE answer.

No, I just asked other questions, you seemed not to be able to handle my questions. If We then, call us Number One, is better then our Ancestors, call them Number Two, lived, I think you gave a number around 200k years? They where, by your own admission, inferior (if we speak mental capacity), so does that not mean certain of us are still related to number two? Or is Everyone now, number one? You saying we do NOT have different evolutionary paths (thats tecnically rhetorical, you know they have according to evolutionists), tell me your thougts on this?

All modern humans are #1, and all are related to #2 by descent. We're asking you to provide genetic evidence that group 1a is significantly different from group 1b. You have repeatedly failed to do so. You have only presented noisy data and waggled your fingers, claiming that moving your ivory tower about has given you magical powers of perception us mere mortals cannot begin to grasp.

So, I ask you again, since you seem to be terrified of this question with a blatantly obvious answer: If the Wright brothers were raised in a nomadic hunter-gatherer society, would they invent the airplane?

Bronze Dog said...

Another thing, Gabe, there's a saying: "If I have seen farther, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants."

Please tell me what this means in the context of science. I doubt you know.

djfav said...

Illiterate? Apparently, racist toll didn't bother stopping by the Egyptian National Library and Archives, or the New Library of Alexandria.

Gabriel said...

Yes, I actually visited THAT one, you got the entire ciy full of Museums, most of them are really shaby, this was suppose to be one of the better ones.. The main I think.

I wanted to see Tutankhamun and most Mummies, Rames II I think was one of the main displays, cant remember.

The place was HORRIBLE, quality , oh around MINUS 5 or so, it was truly a big joke, which was sad as they had some really cool relics very very VERY poorly mainted, man stuff that was 3000 years old had been chipped and screwed up by visitors and such because of poor maintenance.

Anyway, I like history indeed, but that does not change that this third world country is shit, and with that, show no signs at all of progress. YES they have peopel that can read, but now again you show your lack of comprehension, What does SOME PEOPLES ability to read and SOME peoples ability to think have to do with that the VAST MAJORITY of the nations people are ignorant illiterate fools?

Yeah, strawman, oh no, one person there he can read, see, You are wrong...

nice.

Laser Potato said...

"With no vision, the internet will become... different."
SMEWWOVISION REPWACES TEWWOVISON?!

Bronze Dog said...

Gabriel skips the big easy questions and utterly misses the whole point.

You have yet to show that Egypt is in bad condition because of genetic problems. You have yet to show us any reason to favor that one conclusion over many other realistic ones that have far more influence over human lives. Genetic evidence, please.

You're really desperately avoiding that aren't you? This thread's just an excuse to bash Egyptians and convince yourself that you're better off solely because of some magical, unspecified, undetailed superiority in your DNA, rather than favorable circumstances surrounding your birth and education.

Gabriel said...

hahah, a 'reason to bash egyptians'? hahahha, YOU where the ones that took it up, YOU claimed it was an advanced nation not realizing I visited the place, hahhaa.

So you are saying there is obviously some OTHER reason. funny that ,it always is isnt it? it is never genetical, White man does something, black man backwards, no no, thats not genetical, its .. erh.. something else, yeah, something else. Excuses excuses, to easy to trash your points too, funny that.

I been to China to, you want to claim how advanced and magical the kingdom of china is as well? or that zambians living in poverty is not their fault, nope, bad weather, or oh, I dont know, its our fault, right? yeah, someone else other then themselves need to be blamed. wonder why White Americans and Canadians are so good off and then, suddenly, at the MExican border it goes down, with the skin color, THE DRAIN.. a mere coincidence, of course.. White Europe, well off, backwards (colored) turks bad off... gosh, mere coincidence....

tragic

Bronze Dog said...

I've seen Gabriel's of argumentation many, many times.

"You don't know for sure how WTC7 collapsed, therefore I know it was an Orbital R9 Wave Cannon."

"You don't know for sure how this one patient recovered after taking my homeopathic remedy, therefore I know it was my sugar pill that touched diluted water!"

"You don't know for sure what happened at Roswell, therefore I know it was aliens!"

"You don't know for sure what my fuzzy photograph was, therefore I know it was Bigfoot!"

"You don't know for sure what made that face-like image show up on my camera, therefore I know it was a ghost!"

"You don't know for sure what brought down Egypt, therefore I know it was bad genes!"

Old argument from ignorance. Negative evidence cannot be used for a positive assertion.

Genetic evidence or STFU.

Bronze Dog said...

And I see no reason to change that post after finding Gabriel threw one up while I was typing.

For someone who's asserting it was genetics, Gabriel seems terrified of presenting genetic evidence.

Still more argument from ignorance.

Bronze Dog said...

Aside from failing biology forever, Gabriel also seems to buy into "Screw Learning, I Have Phlebotinum!" where the phlebotinum is some magical DNA sequence he never ever wants to talk about.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us what the purpose of the profession we call "teachers" is, Gabriel.

Laser Potato said...

One more analogy: "You don't know the exact circumstances under which a random child drowned, therefore I know Kappa are responsible!"

Gabriel said...

As you seem so set on it, tell me, would you agree that certain meme's are inferior to others?

Would you then, with much unwillingness, accept that certain people, say Egyptians, Zambians or Mexicans are inferior,m not genetically (as you do not want to talk about that) but cultural?

Or would you deny that too, even when you yourself pointed out that they are inferior culturally?

djfav said...

For someone who thinks of himself as superior and refers to other groups of people as inferior, backwards, and illiterate, you'd think he would take the time to proofread his fucking comments. As far as I'm concerned, he's just another data point in a growing set of semi-literate asshats. Superior indeed.

Bronze Dog said...

As you seem so set on it, tell me, would you agree that certain meme's are inferior to others?

Yes.

Would you then, with much unwillingness, accept that certain people, say Egyptians, Zambians or Mexicans are inferior,m not genetically (as you do not want to talk about that) but cultural?

Yes, their cultures have some very bad memes. Those bad memes are more numerous and more commonplace than they are in developed nations.

And us, scared of talking about genetics? Pot. Kettle. Black. Your entire presence at this blog has been nothing but making excuses to avoid talking about the genetic evidence.

Or would you deny that too, even when you yourself pointed out that they are inferior culturally?

About time you agreed with us on the central point we were trying to make. Memetic inferiority is one of the key reasons many nations are stuck behind more developed ones. That problem is curable in an individual through education, especially with children.

Gabriel said...

So you then, agree, that we as a people are superior to examples mentioned?

djfav said...

No, you fucking moron. He said the memes were bad, not the people. For fuck's sake, you are really fucking stupid.

Bronze Dog said...

What my bro said.

Of course, there are also resources, infrastructures, and other things that aid our overall memetic advantage.

To put it in terms of Sid Meier's Civilization, we're winning against them on most fronts, but unlike that game, RL isn't about "winning."

And soon, I believe we'll be seeing you return to the crazy, trying to use statistical trends to calculate how we should treat each individual, and/or treating memes as an inviolable part of a person, as if humans had no brain plasticity.

Gabriel said...

Meme, a cultural unit, does not consist of people?.. Interesting djfav.. Interesting...

djfav said...

Do you even know what the words you're using mean? Really. Get a fucking dictionary. Look up the word "consist" and think about it for a while. Then come back here and tell us what you've learned.

St.B said...

Gabe_ Here I'l help you...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

"A meme (pronounced /ˈmiːm/, rhyming with "cream"[1]) is a postulated unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, and is transmitted from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena. (The etymology of the term relates to the Greek word mimema for "something imitated".)"

Gabe, I'm going to the store now. No one do anything wickedly delightful while I'm gone. ;)

djfav said...

Is anything sinking in yet, Gabe?

You've had plenty of time to think it over.

Gabriel said...

Wow you are uneducated, or willingly ignorant. Meme, a cultural unit, or ideas if you prefer, exists with human beings transfering them and keeping them existant.

No people, no meme... Saying that the people are not responsible for their memes is like saying a murderer is not respinsible for murder, the knife was.........


Dudes, grow up. Now, back in the adult world: The people are therefore inferior (with their inferior memes they follow) to Us, that have superior ones. Dog, can you agree with this or what? Your own turf here, getting worried?

Dark Jaguar said...

"That computer has a virus. It is therefor inferior to my computer which is virus free."

You see, here's the deal. You are confusing the software for the hardware. You are assuming that your computer is virus free due to an inherant property of the computer itself, rather than chance or just having a good user, or an anti-virus program. Heck it might just be virus free because you don't have an internet connection. In reality your computer has the same basic hardware. It's just you picked one of those alienware cases that look like a big bug instead of a case that looks like glass.

So, you think Canada is some pristine example of white supremacy? Have you listened for a moment to the wild rantings of their Prime Minister? Have you studied the history of the place at all? BD's got it right. You don't make the slightest attempt to find other possible explanations and just assume these things.

Also in your rant about white supremacy and the illiteracy of other "races" you seem to drift into all sorts of grammar and spelling errors. Normally I wouldn't bring it up except for the incredible irony considering the point you were trying to make.

Show some proof. Saying "Mexico is worse off than the US and they have what I have decided is a lesser race there" doesn't cut it. Corrolation does not equal causation. And, I'd say you are making a catagory error on top of that, by which I mean you are assuming that they ARE seperate somehow. Again, I have to wonder WHY you think you are in any way responsible for any of the inventions of the modern age.

Again I have to doubt your claims about visiting all these places for years, or at least doubt your claims about actually giving any of them a fair shot. Let me ask you this. If you saw an American museum with a few chipped displays would you say it's just as bad and an example of whites being stupid and lazy, or would you make excuses for why THAT museum is oh so very different?

Oh and, HISTORY man! Study it! Figure out the history of Mexico and Canada. Here's a suggestion. Try very hard to disprove your own idea. What would you have to find to make it untenable? Search that out!

Dunc said...

There are only two possible conclusions here: either Gabe is a complete moron, or he's consciously and deliberately arguing in bad faith. I'm having trouble believing anybody could really be as monstrously stupid as he appears, so I'm leaning towards option B. He's a troll, in the original sense. No amount of argument or evidence will persuade him, because he's just yanking our chains. No-one could possibly look at a list containing "Egypt, Nubia, Babylon, and the Hittites", and assume that I was referring to the present state of these civilisations.

"White" Europeans (lets leave aside the argument about whether the Spanish were "white") have been the dominant culture for only about 500 years. Prior to that, we were a bunch of backward hicks. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that there is anything intrinsically "better" about us - we just got lucky for a while. The precise combination of events and circumstances which lead to the Industrial Revolution occurring in Britain rather than anywhere else is the sort of topic you could write large scholarly books about, and indeed, many people have. There were many factors involved, but inherent genetic superiority isn't one of them.

Having said that, the two absolutely key technologies without which none of it would have been possible were (a) the decimal number system and (b) algebra. Perhaps Gabe would care to tell us who invented those? And then explain why that doesn't count...

St.B said...

Gabe-Are you saying that the “ideas” memes within a person’s mind place them in a genetic position of “superior” or “inferior”? If this is the case… you would be able to use your version of “superiority” to label identical twins genetically “inferior” and “superior” by simply agreeing or disagreeing with their memes. Twin A has perceived good memes, “superior” , Twin B has bad, “inferior“. Wooo, abracadabra genetics made easy!!

Now, if you wish to remove science/genetics from the entire question and say ideas make people “superior” or “inferior” , well good luck with that. Opinions like assholes are plentiful and subjective to the beholder.

So WTF does any of this have to do with evolutionary science? Isn’t that the reason you came in here in the first place? BD has been more than gracious in his attempts to hand hold you through his well versed answers and others have offered you the same. You keep cherry picking the most inane concepts to see if there is a way to vindicate your beliefs. Again, GOOD LUCK with that.

djfav said...

"Wow you are uneducated, or willingly ignorant. Meme, a cultural unit, or ideas if you prefer, exists with human beings transfering them and keeping them existant."

But memes do not consist of people.

"No people, no meme... Saying that the people are not responsible for their memes is like saying a murderer is not respinsible for murder, the knife was........."

Yet again, nice strawman, asshole.

Gabriel said...

Are you saying the people are not responsible for their own culture? Your computer/virus simile makes no sense in this.

ARE people responsible for their lives or not? Are their culture, their meme as you so fond of, not THEIR creating and something THEY created? And hence, THEIR good or bad ones?

IE, having a inferior culture makes the people inferior as THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING IT.. You cant seriously refuse to accept this? Are you that deep down in your rabbit hole?

Gabriel said...

About the museum part, Dude, visit egypt, you will notice ALL OF THE MUSEUMS are like this, we are talking about he NATIONAL MUSEUM looking like a waste dump, ask anyone else that's been there, this would be confirmed.

Our museums, on the other hand, are well kept. Evil evil eh...

Gabriel said...

djfav you are tragic, you pobably never travelled in your life, living infront of the computer. a moron having no knowledge about the world.

You most likely are the biggest dork in real life, but behind your little desk, your glasses on the nose and braces shining, your all 'cool' in the internet world. You happy the white man made this technology, aren't you little man?

MWchase said...

Two issues with what you're saying about memes. One is that people seldom choose their own culture. The other is, you're presenting a false dichotomy: either everybody has the same situation, or differences exist because of genes. You're using the stuff you're pointing to to discount the first option, which is reasonable, I guess, but provides no support for the second option.

I mean, think about this: when decimal notation was first introduced to Europe (after being invented and spread by brown people), they were much more in favor of the 'simpler' Roman numerals. Did we undergo some genetic shift in the intervening time to make our brains more capable of handling a numeral system that doesn't do stuff like top out at the thousand's place?

djfav said...

Yawn.

djfav said...

I mean, really Gabe, if that's the best you can do...

Berlzebub said...

@ Gabe:
When you refer to Mexicans do you mean latino/latina, or are you actually talking about the country of Mexico?

Dark Jaguar said...

A few extra notes. Firstly, I noted earlier his assumption that everyone talknig to him is white. I have to add a question. You apparently think we're idiots. So, is that genetic? Or, do you think we're just "statistical outliers"? Perhaps we've just been "poisoned", that is, memes overwrote our "natural white supremecy" to make us sniveling idiots in your eyes, which begs the question, if it's that easy, why do you think that genes even play such a factor?

Richard Dawkins doesn't even think that genes have such an incredible level of control that they dictate what we believe. At best genes build a nice computer, but once the computer gets turned on, the genes no longer have any control. The way Dawkins put it is to imagine an alien civilization that sends the blueprints for a special robot to Earth, with specific commands even. However, once those blueprints leave the aliens, they no longer have any control. The earthlings could just not build it, or they could build it but with different parts than what's recommended due to differing resources on Earth, or once built it could encounter all sorts of programming issues, since after all the aliens are completely ignorant of Earth's environment and could only design that robot's blueprints based on what they could expect it to likely encounter. So much can go "wrong", "misfire".

And here's my second point. All the shouting in the world about how you just KNOW that various races are inferior does jack squat in the face of successful scientists of those specific races.

Behold, your end!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYBFqse7tiU

This Neil guy is smart. Smarter than either of us I'd wager. He's on half the shows on the Science channel, and he's easily able to "keep up" with Dawkins, which is what you'd expect if black and white genes had no effect on mental accuity, but not at all to be expected if you are a racist. Before you can continue this debate at all, you need to explain him and others like him that stand against everything you say, because no matter how much you sputter about seeing mudhuts or lazy people in this or that culture, they won't just disappear.

Heck personally, while Dawkins is a great speaker, Degrasse has the audience eating out of the palm of his hand here, and personally I find him much funnier. Again, this is no great surprise at all if intellectual capacity is independant of cosmetic genes, but it utterly destroys your argument to the core.

We can go on and on about cultural memes and so on, but in the end one succesful example of each of his designated "races" is more than enough to end the argument.

djfav said...

Getting nationality and ethnicity mixed up is rather telling.

MWchase said...

Getting nationality and ethnicity mixed up is rather telling.

I'm Something-American!

(Are the issues with tags all fixed up? I hadn't noticed either way.)

djfav said...

When Gabe says Mexicans, he's referring to all the brown people trying to introduce foreign subtances into his precious bodily fluids.

Gabriel said...

You are the ones constantly mentioning genes and race etc, seemingly so you dont have to respond to my question.

Secondly, they can be educated, most becomes criminals as seen in the ghettos, or doing nothing as seen in africa, but some can become equal or similar to us, very very very few does this (have a look at how many negroids you see in science), and as I already pointed out, and YOU ACCEPTED, a superior meme such as ours can be TAUGHT to them, of course, most dont go far, but some do.

Just like dogs and other animals, some can achive good things, which is good, to bad they cant do this in their inferior societies.

Berlzebub said...

@ Gabe:
You know what, forget the question I just asked.

You keep trying to conflate genetics with intelligence, but don't even attempt to give any evidence, you ignore that most of the basic knowledge we have of math and even some technologies is derived from what you call "inferior races", and get frothing mad each time someone points out where your attempt at reasoning is wrong.

Again, let me point out that there are successful scientists and inventors in the U.S. of various ethnicities. The reason I say "in the U.S." is that their home countries didn't have the infrastructure or educational facilities that we do, so they came her to learn and do their research. When you figure out that people of a different ethnicity can move to the U.S., get a good education, and then make contributions to society equal to the majority of European descent your argument falls apart.

And for the record, my father-in-law can write more legibly than you and English is his second language (moved to the U.S. at 15). He can also understand explanations much better than you can. By your arguments, that makes you genetically inferior to him.

Gabriel said...

Ad Hominem, thats the best you can do I guess, you see the end of the battle when people need to attack the opponent on a personal level.

Yes, America gives ACCESS to good Education, Technology and Advancements, WE created this and GAVE IT TO THEM, as stated, and you didn't want to speak of, most of our scientist are ipso facto, Westerners, Whites, people with superior memes, the reason we are such a wonderful nation is because we allow anyone good education and the chance to become something, we give access to good ducation to negroids so they can learn to rewad, write and understand basic concepts, and some of them, few, but some, achieve the same levels as the white man.

Most do not, you have people like the negroid golfer, what can he do? Golf.. Play a sport, wow, thats it, NBA, why mostly negriods? because their are bg (tall) and have better physical attributes so even when they have less intelligence and understanding, they have a chance to do something. The rest, what do they do? Maybe you never visited the ghettos here in america, but there you go, instead of working or doing a couple of hours of honest labour, they deal drugs, robe people, rape woman and just tear this nation apart, THATS the majority..

And some good miniority, how nice, but very irrelevant. But you going to ignore that of course.

Also, we stem from the Europeans, and I dont see Britain being a third world country? Germany? France? Thats strange, so They where number one before, We became number one and they, DID NOT (like egypt) collapse and become buffoons, how weird, because Egypt, the nation you mentioned before you realized I visited it (and now you no doubt googled it to find out anything about it, as you do not travel anywhere) is backwards, and yet you claim it was ADVANCED and AMAZING, and then gave excuses, so why aren't France like that now when we surpassed them? A bit of a contradiction there, they seem to stay the same, keep their advanced roots even if we excell them, weird weird.

djfav said...

You obviously don't know the difference between an ad hominem argument and an insult. And you're the one who came here spewing hateful nonsense.

You, sir, are an ass.

Berlzebub said...

Let me get this straight. There's more of the majority making contributions that the minority, and that's your evidence?

Gabe, the Arian race just left me a message. They're disclaiming you as an example of racial superiority because you're so fucking stupid.

Bronze Dog said...

Seems Gabriel is too stupid to realize he's just made some of our arguments for us.

Yes, America gives ACCESS to good Education, Technology and Advancements, WE created this and GAVE IT TO THEM, as stated, and you didn't want to speak of, most of our scientist are ipso facto, Westerners, Whites, people with superior memes, the reason we are such a wonderful nation is because we allow anyone good education and the chance to become something, we give access to good ducation to negroids so they can learn to rewad, write and understand basic concepts, and some of them, few, but some, achieve the same levels as the white man.

Remove the racism and here's what you get: "Education and good memes gives a person a better chance to succeed."

But, of course, Gabriel performs a rather bizarre non-sequitur: "Because many good scientists share the characteristic of being white, you can attribute what I previously credited to memes as being a product of irrelevant features like race."

It's also rather idiotic to claim group ownership over memes when you have yet to provide any such evidence there's a reality to that group beyond being a meme itself.

This whole "white" thing has no genetic basis. That's a central point you've been too terrified to talk about. I still see no citations of genetic data from you. Your racism is based only on fiction.

I also see you've been too scared to answer my question about the Wright brothers.

Oh, and in case you were too stupid to realize it, there are plenty of lazy white criminals out there. It's kind of hard to say "white people" have a level if circumstantial events like memes utterly drown out genetics. You strike me as just some idle redneck-ish person who wants to feel better about himself by finding some trivial similarity between himself and the giants of human civilization. That's about as pathetic as some lazy student who tries to excuse his bad math scores by comparing himself to Einstein, for having bad math scores as a kid.

So, genetic evidence, or STFU. You're the one scared to talk of genetics, since we all know you have no evidence to back you up.

Gabriel said...

Thats funny, look at this:
http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/democrat_scientist_nobel_winner_says_blacks_intellectually_inferior

So this winner of the 1962 Nobel Prize in medicine and One of the world’s most eminent scientists is attacked for pointing out a fact, something HE WOULD BE VERY WELL VERSED IN...

He is the CO DISCOVERER of the DNA Helix.. And when he points out a 'controversy' he becomes just a 'stupid racist', as you could call him... I a mstarting to see a pattern her .Einstein was pretty stupid too, right? Anyone that does not agree with you, are wrong.. Wow.

Bronze Dog said...

Ah, it's no surprise Gabriel subscribes to the Messianic Priesthood Model of Science. Argument from Authority fallacies will get you nowhere in science.

Perhaps you'd better cite his genetic data instead of some guy's blog. Still too scared?

Besides, that contradicts the experimental data from the Human Genome Project. There's no magical law that prevents Nobel Prize winners from becoming cranks.

MWchase said...

FUCK. Comment got eaten. Quick version:

James Watson doesn't know what he's talking about, only thinks that the genes he's suggesting will be found, and seems to be basing his ideas off of IQ tests and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

LMAO @ comprehension fail re: incompetents comparing themselves to Einstein.

You say "WE". Can you prove that you contribute enough for it to be "WE" and not "they"?

Bronze Dog said...

More funny displaying Gabriel's complete ignorance of science:

Einstein was pretty stupid too, right? Anyone that does not agree with you, are wrong.. Wow.

You do realize that Einstein was more or less a denialist of quantum mechanics: The polite version of history only mentions his successful ideas. In reality, in his late life, he rejected QM because it didn't match his aesthetics of a purely deterministic universe.

If we believed Einstein based solely on his virtues of being successful and clever, the computing revolution would have never happened. Why? Transistors work because of quantum mechanics. That's why Einstein moved from being a luminary to and old fogey in the eyes of the scientific community while he was alive.

The intelligence of a scientific idea's proposer doesn't make it right. It's the evidence that backs it up.

That's why you're trapped into the Cargo Cult Science model fed to you by the mainstream media.

djfav said...

I fucking knew he would eventually bring up Watson like he's some kind of one man scientific consensus. I doubt he even understands Watson's arguments, much less the criticisms of his ideas. Even better, he cites a fucking blog post, not the primary literature. Totally fucking clueless.

djfav said...

in/b/4 Bell Curve.

djfav said...

Oh, and I just love how this blog post he linked to portrays this as some kind of political loss for Democrats, when in fact his bullshit was summarily debunked and denounced by just about everyone, that is, except for all the fucking racists out there (I'm looking at you, Gabe).

Bronze Dog said...

You know, this would be even funnier if it were an automotive thread.

Gabriel: "The radiator has an enormous crack in it, so therefore it must be the tires. Anyone who demands photographs of the tires like BD is obviously afraid to talk about tires, and lives in denial of the FACT that there's a crack in the radiator! Henry Ford stopped by, glanced over it, and said it's the tires!"

Jimmy Blue said...

Gabriel:

You are a fucking idiot. Let me just play your game for a little though. I've lived in three different countries and visited 1 more a couple of times. One brother worked in Africa for 5 years, one is in the navy and has visited many more.

So by your standards I know the world. You are wrong and a complete fucking racist tool to boot.

Now a question:
Do you believe and can you prove that every single scientific advancement in the western world has only been brought about by 'white' people?

One further question, how do you define 'white people'?

djfav said...

Gabe, I've got the KKK on line one. They said don't bother applying for membership. You're so stupid you couldn't possibly be white.

Anonymous said...

Jimmy, wow, impressive, I lived in over 15 countries myself on all continents.

I have not claimed that all things are made by white, I spoke about present knowledge and advances, the best most advanced, used a computer lately, yeah? and then have a look AT THE COUNTRIES MENTIONED compared to THE WHITE ONES.

moron

Bronze Dog said...

So, why is "now" special? Why doesn't, say, 2,000 BC count? Why not a date in the future?

And how exactly does this transitory advantage for one arbitrarily cobbled-together group suggest genetics?

Why are racists so terrified to bring up their genetic data? Why must they resort to bringing up the noisiest data available?

It's like watching the ghost hunters latching onto the fuzziest photographs available, and attributing known, reproducible camera artifacts to "spirit orbs." Hell, it's like one of those who admits most orbs are the result of dust, but still claiming that somehow, they're magically able to tell the difference between a dust-created orb of light and a ghost-created one.

Jimmy Blue said...

Racist tool:

Which countries and for how long? Of course, the number isn't important because your argument was simply about people who haven't travelled, and I have and talk frequently with my brothers, who also have. So now you have to find some other retarded reason for pretending your smarter.

I have not claimed that all things are made by white, I spoke about present knowledge and advances, the best most advanced, used a computer lately, yeah? and then have a look AT THE COUNTRIES MENTIONED compared to THE WHITE ONES.

So can you prove that all modern science and technology comes only from white people?

How do you define white people?

moron

From someone who can barely string a sentence together and whose reading comprehension barely rises above trained chimp this is laughable.

Bronze Dog said...

Suggestion: When quoting Gabriel, we replace all his uses of the word "white" with "undescribed group with unspecified genetic advantages."

After all, he doesn't know what he's talking about when he says "white." If he did, he would at least be able to explain the concept.

Bronze Dog said...

Just remembering the computer virus analogy, and Gabriel's Chewbacca Defense that results from his conclusion:

Computer A is a $100 dollar old laptop bought in a garage sale. It was manufactured by Dell.

Computer B is a $100 dollar old laptop bought on discount at the local Mom & Pop electronics store. It was manufactured by Toshiba.

Both computers have nearly identical performance abilities according to their hardware statistics. Computer B, however, is infected with a virus that prevents some programs from working.

The scientist's answer for the inequality: Computer B can perform just as well if you can remove or quarantine that virus. There's no reason to believe there is a hardware reason for a difference in performance.

Gabriel's answer for the inequality: Obviously, Toshiba uses inferior parts to make its computers. And no, no matter how many times you ask me to, I will never ever open up a sample of both computers to look at the motherboards and compare. I refuse to do this because you're too scared to talk about hardware.

Anonymous said...

Dog, your analogy fails, its a strawman burning in the dark, and you know it. I like doing does to, sometimes its fun, but I am trying to be serious with you here so I wont play that game, would respect if you would do the same.

Jimmy, my point about your 'brothers', would be that You claimed my vast knowledge of the world, as highly travelled and experienced in the world of worlds, is NOT VALID because it goes through my own perception, you have now put up a defence against your own ignorance, ie, the lack of travelling and seeing the world (and I am not putting you down because of it, obviously you see other things more important then learning asbout the world, your choice) using Your 'brothers' as 'they travelled, therefore I use them as my base', this makes no sense because A, you claimed My perception was not valid, why woudl your brothers be? and B, I am speaking to you in person, you continueing refering to others as 'they said you said' kind of logic, comeone, thats just silly.

And you know it.


Now, Dog, if you put up a new or refer to a (mew?) post and I will truly dedicate myself to this, try to respond to your demands, and hope you would do the same, and give you a (so many) chance to defend your ideas.

Currently I am on travelling foot, I am in a bit of a pickle actually.. But that is not relevant, and the attack on 'my spelling' is a clear sign of someone losing the battle, the reason I spelled bad was because of the speed I spelled and the unsuitable enviroment I am in, last thing I wrote (if I remember) I was literally having my table top ontop of my chest poking away with limited time, I apologize for not taking time making i all neat, I try to do better, for you guys, in the future as this is so important rather then giving defence to your own stance.

Now, similarly, I am slightly off, aplogize for grammar and spelling I just dont have time to check it now, im truly in the shit here, someone is out to get me :)

Bronze Dog said...

Anonny-Gabriel

Dog, your analogy fails, its a strawman burning in the dark, and you know it. I like doing does to, sometimes its fun, but I am trying to be serious with you here so I wont play that game, would respect if you would do the same.

If it's a straw man, explain yourself. I can only make inferences from the arguments you put forth, and that is what has led me to that conclusion.

Now, Dog, if you put up a new or refer to a (mew?) post and I will truly dedicate myself to this, try to respond to your demands, and hope you would do the same, and give you a (so many) chance to defend your ideas.

That's one thing I was thinking about. I'm going to be taking this computer analogy to a much bigger, more detailed level in another post I'll be putting up later today. I'll be awaiting your commentary.

King of Ferrets said...

Wait, he lived in Antarctica?

I call even more BS!

Anonymous said...

King, yes, I lived in Scott Base (NZ's base in Antarctica). Together with my gf, six months in hell, never doing that again.

Anonymous said...

Added, I lost my google account and dont have time to make a new proper one (and dont want to make a temp one), so I can only post anonymously, justso you know, I make my secret sign so you know its me :P

Jimmy Blue said...

Racist tool:

You're just not very good at this are you?

Where did I claim your alleged vast knowledge or perception was not valid? I merely point out that your excuse that we haven't travelled was not true in my case, and you simply moved the goalposts.

Since when did not travelling the entire planet equate to ignorance when you demonstrate you are clearly an ignorant tosspot and yet claim to have travelled the world?

And then you assume I haven't travelled because I don't want to - because clearly there couldn't be any other reasons. You're an idiot.

Now why won't you answer the questions:

How do you define 'white people'?

How do you know that nothing of modern scientific or technological knowledge has come from non-white people?

Oh, by the way, when were you in Scott base? I know someone who was there and if I can get in touch with him I can easily verify your visit, if it was over the same time period. Can you think of something that would confirm to him you were there?

Anonymous said...

Oh, by the way, when were you in Scott base? I know someone who was there and if I can get in touch with him I can easily verify your visit, if it was over the same time period. Can you think of something that would confirm to him you were there?

Uh? Why would I need to confirm anything? And what would that be? I do not care if you believe me or not, does not change the fact of it, does it?

What exactly would you friend have done there by the way? There is only a limited amount of none scientists, so I assume he was one of the local crew rather then us temps?

Anyway, I actually jumped between Scott and McMurdo a bit (being american and all) as I wanted McD :P


How do you know that nothing of modern scientific or technological knowledge has come from non-white people?

Can you feel that nice toasty fire? Yes, thats the strawman burning its last straws. I never claimed no such thing, so why would I try to show that 'nothing of modern scientific ... knowledge come from non-white'? I never said anything like that, you just made it up.

Dude, grow up, dont waste time making shit up, go read a book, or travel.


The reason I can only assume you do not want ot travel is, IF YOU WANTED TO WHY AREN'T YOU? You gona give excuses like 'i got no money', so why dont you work', or 'the government prevents me', erh? Yeah, mmmkaay...

Dude, if you wanted to travel, you would, you work up some money and go, VERY VERY easy, anything else is excuses, and therefore, You do not want to. Sorry pall.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe, I notice you only answered the least important of Jimmy's questions.

So, how do you define "white people"?

Laser Potato said...

I'll take "shifting the burden of proof" for $200, Alex.

Laser Potato said...

Strawman, eh?

[Gabriel said...
Please explain why the western )white or controlled by whites) are objewctively superior to others?

Please explain why we create oomputers, cars, medicine and all other technologies whiles they do nothing? Please give details to the reason for this.

To correct some other ignorant bloob, the asians are not superior, they have STOLEN our tecnology, this is known history and nothingf strange, the japanese are famaous foe their espionage, nothing strange here, but it does further another question?

As the asian could steal our tecnology and make similar and even improve on certain areas, does this mean our original intelligence have be ome skewed? As genetically, however it is, they did not create anything, WE made all the tecnologies, medicines etc, they had to STEAL IT to make it and understand it, it is interesting.

But I know hyou guys hav not seen anything, travelled anywhere and know nothing, you sit infront of internet and fit tells oyu the truth, why travel, right? So obviouslty I am wrong.. even with all the hisotoric facts I just gave... so.. Anyone wan tt o explain why the WHITE MAN evolved such advanced societies and none-white stayed pimitve? anyone? anyone... ?
8/20/2009 10:01 AM]

Bronze Dog said...

It's long, winding, and a sign of my weird mood. But I've got a quirky and hopefully fun summary of how I believe the universe got to be the way it is.

Gabe should pay very close attention to the later parts and explain where I'm wrong.

MWchase said...

I suppose the 'strawman' and 'bringing up race' contentions come from us expecting Gabe to get his arguments to support his original statements, about skin color.

Now, those statements can either be supported by evidence, or they cannot. Respectively, those states of affairs demand either evidence, or an acknowledgment that no such evidence exists. Which will it be? Put up or shut up?

Bronze Dog said...

How about this, Gabriel: Explain your position, step-by-step from premises to conclusion, rather than force us to guess.

djfav said...

Yeah, quit fucking around. State your case and present evidence, or STFU.

Anonymous said...

did not mention 'skin color' but culture and locations, you seem pretty racial yourself here, i think projection is a possilibity? Or just Freudian slip?

anyway, yes i will respond, give me a good topic and i give you a proper response, my day is getting better should be able to respond in about two days when i arrive, on travelling foot now, visiting the 'advanced nation' of Peru (thats in south america, the incas etc).

The airport wants you to pay for the wifi so i do not use it out of principle, the best airports have free wifi, U.S ones do not for some reason, miami sucks. anyway, promise to give you a proper detail of my views, but its just general facts and such, boring stuff, but no doubr you find contemptment in it as well.

djfav said...

Didn't mention skin color? What are you, an amnesiac?

Jimmy Blue said...

Racist tool:

Uh? Why would I need to confirm anything? And what would that be? I do not care if you believe me or not, does not change the fact of it, does it?

Ah just as I suspected, suddenly Gabe finds that he doesn't need to prove that he has been to any of the places he claims he has.

You are a lying asshat.

What exactly would you friend have done there by the way? There is only a limited amount of none scientists, so I assume he was one of the local crew rather then us temps?

Oh nice try at setting up the "Oh I would never have come into contact with him so he won't remember me." When you can provide something that would verify you were there and when, something you couldn't just find off the internet, I'll try and get in touch with him.

Anyway, I actually jumped between Scott and McMurdo a bit (being american and all) as I wanted McD :P

Excellent, he's been at McMurdo for quite sometime now I believe, in his second tour down on the ice (Scott was one of his first tours). So he could almost certainly have met you. McD? Do you mean McDonalds? Antarctica doesn't have any McDonalds and I can find no mention of one in any of the websites about McMurdo Station.

My brother has also been down to the ice on HMS Endurance as well, I'll have to check if he ever went to Scott or McMurdo or just the BAS base.

Can you feel that nice toasty fire? Yes, thats the strawman burning its last straws.

You're so full of shit your stomach must be distended by now.

This is what you said:

Please explain why we create oomputers, cars, medicine and all other technologies whiles they do nothing? Please give details to the reason for this.

Idiot.

Like I said, you're not very good at this are you?

go read a book

Perhaps you should take your own advice. I recommend you start simple though. "See Spot run" seems about your level.

or travel.

I have.

The reason I can only assume you do not want ot travel is, IF YOU WANTED TO WHY AREN'T YOU? You gona give excuses like 'i got no money', so why dont you work', or 'the government prevents me', erh? Yeah, mmmkaay...

Idiot.

Dude, if you wanted to travel, you would, you work up some money and go, VERY VERY easy, anything else is excuses, and therefore, You do not want to. Sorry pall.

Total idiot.

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