Weapon of Mass Iniquity descended further into the depths of depravity than I thought possible shy of committing war crimes in one of my comment threads.For all the not-insane theists out there: I need a reminder that there are theists out there who actually enact love and kinship, rather than deal out hatred and deceit. Theists who use honest inquiry and understanding, rather than base means and fell designs. Theists who understand that morality is more than a set of arbitrary rules to get you into happyland.
If you're out there, don't hesitate to make a joyful noise.
54 comments:
Joy and Happiness with God leads to a new joy and openess in how you deal with others in the world. A knowledge of the Lord should lead to more tolerance, and the loss of personal jelousy and the need to "be better" than anyone else, believer or not.
A belief in the Lord does not make Him exsist. Even if no one beleived, He would exsist. But, many believers don't understand this. Their faith is so shakey and unsure, that another lack of faith is a threat to them.
It is quiet tolerance and example that will convert, not the self aggrandizement of the rabid supposed beleiver. If you speak to God and He answers in a way that rouses you to anger to meanness, maybe it's not God that's talking back!
That actually sounds more like Buddhist philosophy than anything, Anon.
Well, anyways, my own parents are pretty decent theists, but they're hardly typical. My father's best described as a heretical Catholic, as he believes in the doctrine but not the way the church acts on it (which actually gives him points in my mind, as it shows he's thinking for himself to some extent). My mother, on the other hand, is a Deist through and through.
Of course, there's a good chance I'm overestimating their decency due to my relation to them. But in the end, they do prove that just because you're religious doesn't mean you're completely out of your mind.
There's some exaggeration involved, since I avoid letting Weapon's true form really get to me: He's descended into juvenile gay "jokes" and other stuff on par with them. Combined with his utter lack of understanding of evolution and science in general, I suspect that he's never made it past middle school.
Though I figured it'd be good to give the non-extremists a chance to raise their voice in opposition to those who give religion a bad name.
In effect, he proves evolution, because I seriously doubt his traits will be passed on to a future generation.
Sadly, it looks like he actually has a daughter (assuming we can trust him when he claims that). If anything, it's support for the principle that evolution can pass on bad traits if they're irrelevent to procreation (Alzheimer's disease for instance).
Who am I? Why am I here?
I find this joker to be one of those "Jeebus take the wheel" morons. I hope he does...maybe Jeebus will take him for a long drive off a short pier...
I gotta agree with acute_agnostia on this one. I've interacted with WOMI on my own blog, and after he realized that this is one Christian who disagrees with him on just about everything he left and hasn't been back. All I can say is don't judge God's character based on the character of people like this. Don't judge my character based on his character either. :) Most of us are quite reasonable and have long realized that you can't force anyone to believe anything.
Thanks for stopping by, Amanda. I try to restrain my prejudices, since being a part of the skeptical blogosphere tends to attract the worst of the worst in the opposition.
All the reasonable religious people out there tend to be accepting and don't feel the need to apply unethical levels of force to their arguments.
I get the distinct feeling that if we end up on the debate table, it'll be nice and civilized, and we might both learn something.
Sometime, I think I'll see about writing up a primer on evolution. There are a lot of WOMIs out there misleading honest but underinformed people about how evolution really works and what it means.
Amanda wrote:
I gotta agree with acute_agnostia on this one. I've interacted with WOMI on my own blog, and after he realized that this is one Christian who disagrees with him on just about everything he left and hasn't been back. All I can say is don't judge God's character based on the character of people like this. Don't judge my character based on his character either. :) Most of us are quite reasonable and have long realized that you can't force anyone to believe anything.
Amanda, if you want me back all you have to do send an invite.
Last time I check you did not respond to any of my comments.
Bronze Dog,
The only religious people you have an agreementare with theological liberals.
They are simply secularists that have a cloke of religion.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Personally, I think anything's better than defining theology to be nihilism. At least they show the potential for trying to reconcile theology with facts as they come in.
Then again, I consider the whole of theology to be essentially like extreme trekkiness and related fanboyism: Arguing over how things work in a fictional world, divorced from reality, and often contradicting it.
Well, that may your opinion. Not very surprising at that. But at least you agree with me that they are far from Christian.
Which would be a good thing. Of course, it's all a case of "No True Scotsman."
The sort of "Christianity" you espouse was the sort of thing that made me stop going to church. Nihilism isn't the sort of thing I can condone. If "Christianity" was like that, it served only as a barrier between me and higher values.
The sort of "Christianity" you espouse was the sort of thing that made me stop going to church. Nihilism isn't the sort of thing I can condone. If "Christianity" was like that, it served only as a barrier between me and higher values.
What made you stop going to church is your fanatical hatred towards God. Nobody forces you to do nothing. So you can stop using other people to excuse yourself.
The kind of Christianity that you desire is not Christianity at all.
You've never bothered listening to an atheist, have you?
I hate your God in the way that I hate Emperor Palpatine: As a fictional character. What else could I respond to someone who commanded genocide? How can I love a God who is defined as evil?
Given what I know of her, I'd take Amanda's deity over yours any day. But that's all irrelevant: There's no evidence for deities. How I feel about them is still irrelevant.
If "the kind of Christianity that [I] desire is not Christianity at all", then that makes "Christianity" something undesirable. I don't want to abandon morality like you have. You don't even seem to comprehend the crimes you have committed in the Molly threads.
I hate your God in the way that I hate Emperor Palpatine: As a fictional character. What else could I respond to someone who commanded genocide? How can I love a God who is defined as evil?
Actually, most people in this planet realize that God is a God of love. You are in the low minority few, who have a fanatical hatred towards God, that think that way. But the fact is that the you are alive today due to his mere love for you.
If "the kind of Christianity that [I] desire is not Christianity at all", then that makes "Christianity" something undesirable
Well, sorry to break it to you. Most people desire and have what you reject. So Christianity is desirable but not to YOU.
And that's the devastating truth.
I don't want to abandon morality like you have.
The truth is that you have no objective standard to define morality. You play God over morality: whatever seems good to you. You deem immoral I making fun of your cat, but you have no problem cussing, fornicating, and using vulgar language in your blog (ie masturbating).
You have no idea what morality is.
You don't even seem to comprehend the crimes you have committed in the Molly threads.
Then arrest me. And arrest all the Koreans that would eat your cat for lunch.
Actually, most people in this planet realize that God is a God of love. You are in the low minority few, who have a fanatical hatred towards God, that think that way. But the fact is that the you are alive today due to his mere love for you.
Murder and rape is love?
The initial stance I took on leaving church was that people like you were Satanists in disguise. To keep going to such a church would have been an affront to God.
Well, sorry to break it to you. Most people desire and have what you reject. So Christianity is desirable but not to YOU.
And that's the devastating truth.
I find it funny that you consider trivialities to be "devastating."
Argumentum ad populum doesn't work. Morality is not relativistic when it comes to rape, murder, and genocide. You diabolism defines God as doing despicable acts, therefore your God is, by definition, not love.
The truth is that you have no objective standard to define morality. You play God over morality: whatever seems good to you. You deem immoral I making fun of your cat, but you have no problem cussing, fornicating, and using vulgar language in your blog (ie masturbating).
You have no idea what morality is.
Yeah, because using a handful of taboo words to make a point a little sharper at choice moments is exactly the same as advocating violence and calling love a sin.
Then arrest me. And arrest all the Koreans that would eat your cat for lunch.
Nice play on pedantry. Do you always rely on such semantics games?
Oh. Wait, yes, you do.
Murder and rape is love?
God has never murdered nor raped.
The initial stance I took on leaving church was that people like you were Satanists in disguise. To keep going to such a church would have been an affront to God.
Cute. But, again, you can stop blaming other people for your rebellion against your Creator. You did not only leave church, you have left God. I have left churches before, but I have not left God.
The bottom line is that you left God because you do not want to do anything to do with him.
I find it funny that you consider trivialities to be "devastating."
Yes, its a matter of perspective. The truth to you is trivial and lies (you came from a monkey) is a revelation.
Argumentum ad populum doesn't work. Morality is not relativistic when it comes to rape, murder, and genocide. You diabolism defines God as doing despicable acts, therefore your God is, by definition, not love.
It seems that you have a label for any truth presented to you. I can go through your blog and label every point you make likewise, but it would be a waste of my time.
The fact is that you bought the argument up saying that Christianity is not desirable. Which is nothing more than wishful thinking. You would have been more accurate in saying, "Chrisitianity is not desirable to me."
Morality is not relativistic when it comes to rape, murder, and genocide.
Yes it is if one goes by your moral standards. To the rapist, he finds nothing wrong with rape and the murderer finds justification for murder.
Just like you, a fornicator. You as a fornicator find nothing wrong with fornicating.
God has never murdered nor raped.
Ever heard of the flood?
Ever read about all the massacres in Joshua?
Ever read Numbers?
Sounds like murder and rape to me. He may not have done all of those acts himself, but commanding them is just as bad.
Cute. But, again, you can stop blaming other people for your rebellion against your Creator. You did not only leave church, you have left God. I have left churches before, but I have not left God.
The bottom line is that you left God because you do not want to do anything to do with him.
1. Stop making stuff up.
2. The god they wanted me to follow was evil. Murder, rape, and eternal torture for not winning the faith lottery are immoral acts.
3. The basis of my decision was "God is Love". The church betrayed love, therefore they betrayed God. I dropped the "God is" part when I saw the contradiction involved. Love was more important to me than a Super-Superman.
Yes, its a matter of perspective. The truth to you is trivial and lies (you came from a monkey) is a revelation.
There you go making stuff up again.
The "truth" of a religion's popularity is trivial because it has absolutely zero to do with the validity of that religion.
You also continue to lie about what evolution means, and how it was arrived at. Come back when you've learned something about the scientific method.
It seems that you have a label for any truth presented to you. I can go through your blog and label every point you make likewise, but it would be a waste of my time.
Logical fallacies are logical fallacies. A is equal to A. Cheating is cheating. You can't magic away that.
Yes it is if one goes by your moral standards. To the rapist, he finds nothing wrong with rape and the murderer finds justification for murder.
Just like you, a fornicator. You as a fornicator find nothing wrong with fornicating.
You just enjoy weaving tall tales, don't you? Try going back to "U R Gay!" or maybe you should move into "UR a ped0ph1le!"
So, what makes the moral standard I have (love, justice, yadda, yadda) inferior to yours?
Yeah, because using a handful of taboo words to make a point a little sharper at choice moments is exactly the same as advocating violence and calling love a sin.
Again you are imploying your own relative moral standards. I make fun of eating my rabbit at times as well.
Nice play on pedantry. Do you always rely on such semantics games?
For a guy that loves the semantics game you sure have no idea of what has been said.
No semantics game. The words say what they mean and mean what they say.
Nice try.
Ever heard of the flood? Ever read about all the massacres in Joshua?
Funny. I find no examples of rape. Apparently you have a hard time differentiating between killing murder. I assume that you also believe that our American troops are murderers as well.
The fact is that if God were a murderer he definitely would have not died on the cross for you.
Sounds like murder and rape to me. He may not have done all of those acts himself, but commanding them is just as bad.
Well, I do not know where you see him commanding rape, but for someone who has a fanatical hatred towards God, it is not surprising that you would make up lies about him.
According to your hermeneutic you are liable for murder too every time you eat chicken.
Again you are imploying your own relative moral standards. I make fun of eating my rabbit at times as well.
Love and justice are not relative.
For a guy that loves the semantics game you sure have no idea of what has been said.
No semantics game. The words say what they mean and mean what they say.
Nice try.
You do realize that there are alternate definitions in dictionaries, don't you? What's next? Are you going to say that only the first definition counts? Imagine that ruins all of set theory in mathematics.
But simply, your behavior has been uncivilized. How's that?
You made an offensive joke apparently for the specific purpose of agitating me. You wanted me to feel pain because it would cause you pleasure.
Apparently you have a hard time differentiating between killing murder.
So, it's okay to kill babies?
I assume that you also believe that our American troops are murderers as well.
Nice of you to make stuff up.
Have you been living life in a box filled only with cardboard cut-outs of people?
The fact is that if God were a murderer he definitely would have not died on the cross for you.
1. Prove that he has.
2. Just what sort of bizarre act was that? Sacrifices himself to himself in order to learn how to forgive? Strikes me as schizophrenic.
Well, I do not know where you see him commanding rape, but for someone who has a fanatical hatred towards God, it is not surprising that you would make up lies about him.
I know a euphemism when I see one. The men get to keep the virgin women for themselves? If rape isn't implied there, it at least implies slavery.
Oh, and what would you call that thing he did with Mary?
According to your hermeneutic you are liable for murder too every time you eat chicken.
Nice of you to keep making stuff up.
So, what makes the moral standard I have (love, justice, yadda, yadda) inferior to yours?
Nice try. But that was not the point I made. The point I made is that you have no objective moral standard. That's why you as a fornicator, do not mind fornicating. Your moral standard is relative to your whims.
Love and justice are not relative.
You are right. But according to your worldview it is.
You do realize that there are alternate definitions in dictionaries, don't you? What's next? Are you going to say that only the first definition counts? Imagine that ruins all of set theory in mathematics.
Yes, but unlike you, I mean what I say and say what I mean.
Nice try. But that was not the point I made. The point I made is that you have no objective moral standard. That's why you as a fornicator, do not mind fornicating. Your moral standard is relative to your whims.
Game. Set. Match. Caught in your lie right there.
What evidence do you have that I'm a fornicator?
You couldn't possibly be making that up in an attempt to poison the well, so to speak, could you?
You are right. But according to your worldview it is.
More making stuff up.
But simply, your behavior has been uncivilized. How's that?You made an offensive joke apparently for the specific purpose of agitating me. You wanted me to feel pain because it would cause you pleasure.
Honestly, its not all that serious. Hollywood makes plenty of jokes against animals and I do not here you protesting against them.
Do you not think its quite hypocritical thay you and your like makes fun of my God (viz Jesus) and you cry over me making fun of your cat?
The difference between your jest and mine is that yours are lies generated by a fanatical hatred towards God. My jest is common practice by many people, and it is not generated by hatred towards animals as I have pets of mine own.
correction...
My jest is based on common practice by many people.
1. Prove that he has.
It is a historical fact that Jesus existed and that he died via crucifixion. Whether or not you are willing to accept that he died for you then it is your choice to make.
2. Just what sort of bizarre act was that? Sacrifices himself to himself in order to learn how to forgive? Strikes me as schizophrenic."
It would be like the judge paying the penalty for your crime. You may call this schizophrenic because you do not want to think of the idea that he died for you, but to many this is the greatest act of love.
What evidence do you have that I'm a fornicator?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Honestly, its not all that serious. Hollywood makes plenty of jokes against animals and I do not here you protesting against them.
Ever heard of context?
Do you not think its quite hypocritical thay you and your like makes fun of my God (viz Jesus) and you cry over me making fun of your cat?
No. Because the context of those jokes is different.
Oh, and just to note: I haven't been making fun of God or Jesus during our "conversations": I've been making fun of the fallacies you employ.
The difference between your jest and mine is that yours are lies generated by a fanatical hatred towards God. My jest is common practice by many people, and it is not generated by hatred towards animals as I have pets of mine own.
Stop making stuff up.
It is a historical fact that Jesus existed and that he died via crucifixion. Whether or not you are willing to accept that he died for you then it is your choice to make.
Forensic evidence?
It would be like the judge paying the penalty for your crime. You may call this schizophrenic because you do not want to think of the idea that he died for you, but to many this is the greatest act of love.
I fail to see the love involved. He made up arbitrary malicious rules, and went through a bizarre stunt that didn't cost him anything except a minor inconvenience in order to change them into a different set of malicious rules.
Comment moderation has been turned on. I think everyone with an ounce of civility can guess why.
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
No.
Wow. I had to stop reading all of these comments before the end.
WOMI: Nothing you have said here is remotely honoring to God. If you want to honor God, reflect Christ, not the Pharisees. "Christian" means "Little Christ" or "Like Christ." You haven't exhibited any of those qualities on any comment thread that I've seen. Christ would never make the snide and downright mean comments that you've made. Even when Christ was angry it was righteous anger. You seem out to tear into anyone whose opinion is different than yours. And come on...making those comments about someone's pet? That's downright mean.
Of course, Amanda. I forgot that your version of love is holding hands with the ungodly and singing "kumbaya."
Act like Christ?
1. Should I call him a child of the devil like Jesus called some in his day. (John 8:44)
2. Should I call him a viper as John the Baptist referred to some (Matthew 3:7). Apparently Jesus did not mind since he was in the midst of them.
3. Should I call him a fool, like the word of God calls those who say there is no God? (Psalm 14:1)
Apparently you have no idea of what Jesus was like. That's why you have not been able to answer the versus I've been posting on your blog but instead conveniently ignore them. When your comments are compared to the Word of God, they will always come short.
The truth is that Jesus always confronted sin. He forgave them, but he confronted them. BTW, it seems that I have speak more of the love of God than you. I do not know what you are trying to do here, but it is certainly not trying to preach the Gospel.
2 Corinthians 5:11
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
This is getting ridiculous. No, it's been ridiculous for awhile now.
Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
And the definition of love?
From 1 Cor 13:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
You're right about one thing: the Bible does say that the fool says in his heart that there is no God.
But how foolish (not to mention childish) are you being by making up your own version of events to attack. Half of the stuff you have attributed to Bronzedog and his worldview are assumptions you have made based on flawed information and have nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand. I can guarantee you that Jesus never resorted to making up stuff just so he could condemn and stir up strife.
As usual you ignore the versus presented to you and create a God of your own fabrication.
If you think I hate BD, you have no idea. If I were do detested of the BD's kind I certainly would not left my family and come Sin-City to try to win them to Christ.
And I said before, BD has heard more of the love of God (though he dismisses it) from my posts then from any of yours.
And judging from the recent comments you made at your blog, it seems that they are having more of an influence to you than you are to them.
Half of the stuff you have attributed to Bronzedog and his worldview are assumptions you have made based on flawed information and have nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand.
Not to overly nitpick, but I'd say it's more around the vicinity of "none."
To summarize the whole thing with my cat:
Weapon: "Bronze Dog loves his cat! That means he's one of those insane PETA nuts who believes animals are superior to mankind like Jack Chick told me about!"
Or how about this:
Weapon: "Bronze Dog believes in evolution, is worried his cat might have a genetic problem, so I'm going to accuse him of being nearly the opposite of an evolutionist: A eugenicist!"
I don't think Weapon's really a theist: I think he's a solipcist. Would explain why he paints the entire universe a uniform black.
And I said before, BD has heard more of the love of God (though he dismisses it) from my posts then from any of yours.
The world as Weapon apparently sees it:
"Black is white!"
"Up is down!"
"Proscriptive is descriptive!"
"Eugenics is evolution!"
"Sorcery is naturalism!"
"Cause is acausal!"
"Objective is subjective!"
"Love is hate!"
"Meaning is nihilism!"
"Evil is good!"
"Ignorance is strength!"
Weapon, you're in desperate need of medication. Your "God" matches every description I've ever heard of Satan. Don't listen to the voices.
Ok, since arguing specific scripture with Weapon isn't going to work since he just overlooks the bits he doesn't like, I've got a few basic questions for him.
1: Is God all knowing?
2: Is God all powerful?
Both of these are a yes, as I understand your theology but I want to avoid making assumptions. After you've answered those questions I may be able to give you better argument as to my view on the matter of your god. (which appears to coincide somewhat with Bronze Dog's)
If you think I hate BD, you have no idea. If I were do detested of the BD's kind I certainly would not left my family and come Sin-City to try to win them to Christ.
I was, at one point, going to make a post about this but refrained from lack of evidence. Now I have it.
See, WoMI is one of those completely ignorant Christians who hates all he sees as not Christian with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. His ire and fury, his shouting of lies and fabrications, his obvious disgust at who and what he seems to think BD is makes this painfully obvious. He, however, like many Christians like him, thinks that his hatred, when harnessed for "righteous" purposes, like attacking others' beliefs or lifestyles, and attempting to tell them how to live their lives, is somehow transmuted into love.
It's entirely possible, though, that that though process doesn't take place at all. He might just be living in a state of complete cognitive disonnance: "This all-consuming fire that I feel, this thing that drives me to do what I do, must be love, because it is of the Lord."
Either way, he's a pretty worthless individual, and BD had it dead on:
"Love is hate!"
And people wondered why I considered WoMI's brand of Christianity to be a form of diabolism at the time I left the church.
And people wondered why I considered WoMI's brand of Christianity to be a form of diabolism at the time I left the church.
His "brand of Christianity" is not Christianity at all. I do hope that you have at least been able to see that.
It may meet some technical definitions floating out there, but in terms of flavor, his bitterness of character is way off the Christianity of my youth, which featured a great deal of the good side of humanity.
I still retain that, and recognize that anyone can have it, regardless of religious beliefs. Humans are social creatures. Love is written into our DNA.
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