Monday, October 05, 2009

A Long Response to Gabriel

Gabriel managed to type a series of comments in a cooler manner, apparently in Notepad while offline, judging from the page breaks I've removed for ease of reading. (A very useful trick. Tip: I find that turning off Word Wrap before saving helps) I have written a long response and don't feel like slicing it up for the 4096 character limit. Besides, I think it's worthy of a full-blown post in itself.

Alot of people do not do much with their lives, they sit at home, play World of Warcraft, Diablo or similar games, and the most they do in socializing is when they invite their riends over for some live roleplay, I am not saying you are one of these rather pathetic people, but wanted to point out that you have shown signs of it, and most of your followers certainly seems to fit this bill.
I'll make an exception in the tone for this defense of us nerds, geeks, and weirdoes:

Translation: "Stereotypical nerdy hobbies means everything I say about science is meaningless because Hollywood loves to depict all of them as chronic LARPers in everyday contexts."

What's wrong with having a few friends over for a role-playing game? How's that any different from having a few buddies over to watch football? Or going over to a bar to chat?

Don't believe every stereotype you see in movies and TV. I tend to facepalm at the antics of those over-eager convention radicals who established the stereotypes Hollywood uses. I play D&D and Magic, but I don't even so much as own a plastic sword, though I do have a bad habit of collecting pretty dice or rummaging through common card boxes. I'm currently going neat freak on my apartment as I pause between typing.

About the absolute worst convention behavior I can imagine doing is putting together a simple, cheap costume to wear or asking Patrick Stewart to give me a moment to get un-starstruck so I can talk to him like a regular guy.

And what the hell does this red herring have to do with epistemology?
I prefer experiencing the world, that is, Learn about the real world we live in rather then sitting infront of the computer. Computers and the Internet are a great thing indeed, and sure, Wikipedia, something you have shown you truly admire (and sure, I admit taking cheapshots at you with that one, but comeone, you don't think twice before insulting me) is clearly a useful tool, but it is not the truth(tm) and this is something I think you need to realize.
I admire Wikipedia and the Internet in the same sense I admire books and radio. Contrary to what Fox News tells you, New Media are not necessarily evil.

I read blogs and search engines because they're generally faster and more relevant than the travesties of journalism that so often occur with mainstream media. The information I get from one internet source doesn't magically transform into false information just because another internet source is popular with internet cranks.

Information is information is information. No media or personal experience is magically exempt from critical thinking. Science exists so that we can collaborate and ask critical questions. When you badmouth us for daring to ask such questions, you're acting the same as any old media mogul who thinks he can issue truth from on high. Learning is a team sport, and if you don't answer our basic questions, we can't learn.
[About Peru] This is not relevant, I just wanted to state what I am doing now.
I successfully stopped myself from wondering if we ran you off. I hope this can mean you can take your time to think and communicate clearly.
When I lived in Africa just a couple of years ago, I travelled between South Africa, Botswana and Namibia trying to improve education and make it better for the people (and this is the relevant part-> ), now, to the contrary to how you act and behave, we do not insult people and degenerate others, we work on passion of Love. We want to make it better and with knowledge comes understanding, and therefore a better life.
Yes, I imagine like many other people, you can maintain a civil tone. I live in Texas, so I'm very familiar with the process of self-censorship in "meatspace." Like many people, I'm much more outspoken in "cyberspace" because I'm less likely to need to file a wrongful discharge lawsuit (that the right term?) if I find out my boss is a little too fundie and doesn't like atheists.
...no, we calmly educate them just as you would with dogs. We
do not kick or harm dogs because they are inferior, we teach them and make them understand, just as we do with the negriods when I worked there.
This problem is usually your cyberspace manners over here, not the meatspace ones. It doesn't shock me that you can be a perfect gentleman.

Of course, the other problem is that you're characterizing them as dogs. I had a Master's level spatial science course with a native Nigerian. Aside from being longwinded and having a thick accent at a class presentation, he was perfectly on the level with the rest of us. I've also been reconnecting with a black childhood friend who has apparently gone on to lead a troupe of thespians in NY. (I don't know how far back his US presence goes, but he was always doing something to keep himself busy.)

I don't intend to generalize from those two, but I would think exceptions to your theory that severe cast doubt on it, especially since there are many causes of laziness.
They know very well they are inferior, they see America, the most advanced nation the world as ever seen, they see our history and the Whites building it and want to become like us, I try to make it so, I try to teach them to become just like us and act like us. I want to Help and I am doing it as much as I can. They ask me about the White world and Why we are so great, and I teach them and let them understand that they cant live like savages anymore, not if they want to live a good life, get technology like ours and so forth.
It's true that all the first world nations have a high standard of living, and we have a lot to share and teach the world.

The problem I have is calling it "white." White skin may be correlated with a nation's prosperity in 2009, but there's no logical connect beyond that. Correlation does not imply causation. There are no "smart white genes" or any physical reason for "whites" being smarter that I am aware of to lend plausibility to that causation. As far as scientific consensus goes, we're genetically almost identical. Translate all the unique base pairs the average human has into binary code, and you've barely got a few minutes of an MP3, and by statistical odds, the vast majority of that tiny uniqueness will be parts of space-holding "junk DNA".

We aren't superior because of genetics, but because we have an infrastructure that supports and rewards intellectualism and science: We have the resources and knowledge base it takes to teach everything we know to new generations as well as give them the time to build on those things. That same infrastructure has spread to the "Eastern" world. The Enlightenment was founded on the happy accident of ideal resources in Europe and North America that gave us the stability needed to think about the world around us instead of just where the next meal is coming from. Globalization is steadily spreading those resources around to, hopefully someday, level the playing field. That's why we're hearing about a new satellite from India, and why many of my favorite video games come from Japan.
...but we cant pretent they are somehow equal to us, they know themselves they are inferior...
There's a fundamental problem with that mindset, Gabe. This may sound like a squishy after-school special, but the best way to make sure the gifted people excel is to give everyone equal opportunity and measure them by the same standards. Sometimes genius can show up in unexpected places. We can't know a person's limits without giving them every opportunity to test them. Humans are amazing things full of surprises.

You don't tell a kid whose parents never went to college that he's destined for the same blue collar work of his ancestors. Humans are very plastic creatures. That's what separates us from most other animals: Our big brains with all that neural plasticity means that we're the species with the greatest capacity for learning. Our entire way of life called "civilization" is built on the ability to pass down knowledge to new generations so that they can invent new ideas on the foundations set forth by previous generations. That same plasticity is why you shouldn't allow yourself to think you know someone's destiny before hand. The right words at the right time could cause an otherwise dull person to be inspired to achieve a greatness we didn't realize was just waiting to happen.

If I'm utterly wrong about race, and that there is some undiscovered difference in "white" and "non-white" brains, then there's no harm done: Those with great talent still succeed, and those without still fail in the ideal meritocracy. I just don't think someone should be nailed down by their family's or even nation's history. Of course, as a side note, multi-generation interracial people would be a grab bag, unless you intend to argue that some brain gene actually is connected to melanin production genes in some fashion.

The argument's the same whether we're talking about race, brain damage, family background of scholarship or lack thereof.
Well, with education and understanding, if they know they need help, they can be given it, but without understanding it, you cant. If you do not know your sick, you wont be able to treat it, and the same is here, they need to understand their place, just like dogs, but people like you need to get rid of the hatred you have in you and understand to spread love instead, just because you know something, say a dog is inferior, does not mean, which you seem to believe, you need to hate it. Thats not how to do it.
If we were instead talking about some gifted white kid from a "working class" family instead of black people from an impoverished nation, this would be exceptionally cruel and closed-minded to say about him. There were times that upper class land owners would say this sort of thing about serfs, as if they were a different species.

Treat everyone as an individual, instead of some collective drawn in the sand. That way, if you encounter a talented individual, he can rise above poor backgrounds. I'm glad to live in the modern US where we have a degree of social mobility, and hope for more. The problem I have with this "inferior/superior" thing in this quote is that it seems to me that you're just substituting one trivial phenotype for class to make excuses.

Additionally, inferiority doesn't really matter to me, just content of character. If I were to spontaneously develop some unexpected ability that made me superior to humankind, I wouldn't change a thing about how I treat them. They're still sapient, sentient beings. It wouldn't matter if some yet-undemonstrated genetic factor caused it. I don't treat the brain damaged worse than the average stranger, though I might err in the direction of protectiveness.
A thousand years ago the negriods where living on the savanna, no technology, most die at a young age.
A thousand years ago, "whites" were having a superstitious dark age after a backlash from almost getting the Enlightenment right.
White man where travelling the oceans discovering new continents and creating new cities.
Likely because, by happy accident, a lot of really good resources where far enough north that white skin just happened to be a useful adaptation. A civilization's prosperity is not determined by genetics alone, so there could be a myriad other explanations in that noise. What I'm asking for, as a scientifically-minded person, is something to filter out a genetic signal from all that noise. It's the same technique I use if my car has a problem.
White man had conquered most of Europe, western Europe was spawning (need to use that word) technologies and making the world a better place (for us humans).
And killing and torturing one another for the sake of magical sky fairies. Oh, and dark-skinned Moores were having a little renaissance of their own, making breakthroughs in science and mathematics, which is why today we whites use Arabic Numerals.
Fifty years ago the negriods where mostly living on the savanna, no technology, most die at a young age. A few exceptions such as the areas controlled by Whites, which turned into civilized societies.
After the whites slowed down on performing attrocities for the sake of shiny rocks.
White man went out in space and landed on the moon.
Thanks in part to the knowledge of the Arabs and their invention of the decimal point, and the Asians for providing the first forms of gunpowder and rocketry. Oh, and I imagine there were some blacks who contributed more directly, if they managed to overcome artificial obstacles planted by segregation.
A new disease, HIV, had taken over most of the continent, because of lack of education, common sense and general savage behaviour the disease was spreading like wildfire through rapes, unprotected sex and blood transplants and various other ways.
And would be spreading even faster today without any form of treatment if it were not for the Enlightenment values you've previously rejected being applied to the field of medicine.
White man had created the most advanced nation the world has ever seen, United States of America. White man where working night and day to try to find the cure for AIDS and other diseases, already abolishing alot of them, such as tuberculosis and others.
All thanks to the Enlightenment value known as the scientific method, and not newage (rhymes with sewage) anecdotalism. From the looks of things, it's not going to last, with the crystal wavers, alties, psychics, and religious fanatics spitting on the foundation of that prosperity and embracing anti-intellectualism.
Why does the facts not get through?/In that scull of yours?
Aside from mentioning there were some African empires, a lot of that is indeed true. It's your genetic explanation that's the problem. It contradicts everything civilization is founded on, and no, I don't mean stuff like democratic values or the Constitution: I mean the science that separates me from being just another religious fanatic. For me to accept your genetic explanation, I would have to stop believing in evolution. I would have to stop believing in the value of a good education. I would have to stop believing everything all those white scientists you praise say about how to repeat their success.

Those premises are pretty much true, but your conclusion about a magical, unspecified, undefineable, undetectable gene is the problem. Even if I didn't have any alternative explanations, I wouldn't see any reason to accept such a hypothesis without a LOT more footwork on your part.
What constitutes facts is a hard one, especially looking at the logic followed by the Bronze Dog himself, he has so far shown that if he does not like/accept it, it is generally not True, making by default, anything Dog likes, true and factual.
You're reading from a newage crystal-waver's diatribe, aren't you? The problems I'm talking about are fundamental to the structure of your argument, not the conclusion. I want to believe in psychic powers, but even I won't give them the inches you're asking for. I'm not saying you believe in psychic powers. I'm saying you ask for the same special exceptions to the rules of logic and science I'm unwilling to give anyone, even people I wish were right.
This brings a bit of a problem to the real world and people like me, as he decided not to 'like' anything I say, and therefore it is not true. I need to find entries in Wikipedia to be able to 'confirm' any fact, it seems, I wonder what he think about CreationWiki???
Gabe, you're really desperate if you're still trying to milk that Wikipedia straw man. Wikipedia is irrelevant to this conversation, since that one Wikipedia link I used wasn't even used to make an important point against you. I'm using simple logic to point out your fallacies. Logic that predates the printing press as well as Wikipedia.
First of all, I travelled and experienced alot. Far more then you, I suspect, that is not a insult, and certainly not a way of saying that my opinions is somehow better then yours, I just wanted to make you understand that I seen and done alot in this WORLD of ours, not World of Warcraft, not in a TV sitcom, but the Real World, out there, and however you want to dismiss any experience and knowledge I gained, As a minimum we are equally as functional, mentally, atleast on my side (I dont know if you have some mental disorder but presume not), there must be a limit, must it not?
You still don't understand a thing about me, or what I'm saying. Making fun of Wikipedia or WoW doesn't make your conclusions valid. They are invalid for the same reason penis enlargment pill testimonials are invalid. If someone wants to convince me penis enlargement pills work, they should use a ruler before and after on a randomly selected group of men and include a placebo control group. Once you understand why I don't trust TV ads that promise miracle cures (even from people who can be verified not to be actors or paid for testimonials), you'll understand why I don't trust your conclusions based on your anecdotes and noisy historical data.

Instead of addressing that sort of thing, I predict you'll just bring up Wikipedia and WoW again, and beat the stuffing out of them as if they had anything to do with me or the conversation. I suppose next, you're going to ridicule me for reading books, as if that automatically equates to me believing everything in the fiction section. Don't bother mentioning Wikipedia or WoW again. I'm advising you to avoid that for the sake of generosity: It makes you look like some stupid jock stereotype from "Revenge of the Nerds" who would rather beat up some kid with glasses on random compulsion, rather than have a meaningful conversation about science.
'Science' is based on people, people just like me, alot of them do not see as much as I see and certainly not as intelligent as me, so they must generally, in a minimum, in your own standard, be equal to me, correct? And therefore, what is the big deal trying to give authority to 'Science' and not 'Gabe and others' if we follow the same procedure?
What sets science apart from pseudoscience is that we have to ask each other AND ourselves questions to make sure we're not deceiving ourselves. Why are you asking for a special exemption from that process? Why is it, that when we bring up an alternative hypothesis that explains the same facts more parsimoniously (using forces we already know and agree exist), you randomly start beating the stuffing out of a straw man called "That WoW-playing nerd on that children's cartoon show who bookmarked Wikipedia"?

It's like you have a programmed reflex to mindlessly ridicule certain media instead of actually thinking about what we over here, not over there, are saying. You're like a spambot who locked onto one key word early on and shows up everyday to advertise something completely irrelevant at hand. It's like Boney on that thread about the nuts who believe in The Secret: I mention D&D once, and suddenly the science of quantum mechanics and his logical fallacies don't matter: It's "beat up the geek" time.
In the science world today there is alot of politcally correctness, you are not allowed to state certain facts and not even try to step into the realm of what is not allowed.
That's pretty much what all cranks say about, well, everything. It's usually an excuse for them to be lazy and refuse to talk about their data, even on forums. It's false bravado combined with sour grapes.
Racial matters is just like that, you see no research in how Whites are superior to negriods, Why is that?
You can't research an idea if the question is gibberish. And they have done a lot of research on humans in general. Even if you manage to describe what the hell you're asking about, I don't see the purpose in doing it from a pragmatic point of view: Treat everyone equally, and the talented will naturally excel. That's true, regardless of whether the difference is on the individual level or on some population genetic level.

I would be curious on strictly an academic level, but you can't talk about it: All I ever get out of you is some gibberish about a fictional WoW player who spends too much time on Wikipedia.

About the only thing I've done with Wikipedia in earnest lately was look up a few celebrity names to help my mother with a crossword puzzle while I was visiting this weekend. I'm terrible with celebrity trivia.
And yet you see people claiming it is not so, that EVERYONE IS EQUAL, yet no evidence is produced.
Fallacy: Shifting the burden of proof. I suggest you learn something about the "null hypothesis": Equality means "there is no difference." Science isn't in the business of proving the nonexistence of stuff. That's like a psychic asking us to prove there is no such thing as psychic power. Why waste time and resources exploring the entire universe from start to finish when they can expedite the process by proving the existence of one psychic over the course of an afternoon.

In statistics, one of the very first things you have to do with a dataset is prove that the groups are NOT equal. This is basic philosophy of science.

And even then, it's a straw man: I don't believe everyone is equal. Some people are better at math. Some people are quicker on their feet. I just see very little reason to use race to change how I'd treat someone in an educational context.
Politically correct has become a huge hindrence in knowledge, we are not allowed to study the difference between niggers and spics, spics and whites and whites and niggers, because it does not suit.
How exactly can they stop you? Okay, let's say they don't publish you. You can shout from the mountaintops the logical fallacies the peer reviewers employed in the letters. You can self-publish and dare someone to contest your results.

What I'm seeing here is, "I know with absolute god-like certainty how you'll respond, so I won't even bother trying to make my case."

Well, we've been busy asking you to try, and all we get are anti-science diatribes that would be quite welcome on the tongues of crystal-waving hippies who are racist in the opposite direction: They ask for watered-down Hollywood "Eastern" mysticism to be exempt from "Western" "white" science.

All you're doing, Gabe, is posting excuses for your exemption from basic scientific rigor and even basic chat room critical thinking.
Anyone wanting to go into this field would be condemed, no grants and most likely lose their jobs, thats not a overly 'paranoid(ic)' statement, really.
Let's say you're right, and these people would lose their jobs. How is that going to change the evidence they present? How is that going to prevent them from posting it online for the world to see and analyze in detail? Science takes a lot of courage, even if you're just trying to get data on slime mold published. Peer review can be vicious, even for topics we would consider trivial. If someone can rigorously collect the data and display sound logic, their critics will be demonstrably unarmed.

Instead of any of these people bravely stepping forward just to try, they just repeat this cliched mantra borrowed from B-movie science fiction.

Just like I do every time a parapsychologist comes forward to say that they've got proof, I call their bluff. The studies they present are always underwhelming and easily explained by bad statistics, a magician's sleight of hand, or a mentalist's stage act. So far, Gabe, you're no different in that regard: Every fact you bring up can be explained by countless other forces.
That is an issue, people like you, and not to mention your rather pathetic followers, who truly are a shining example of close-minded nimrods, they are truly people you should distance yourserlf from if you want to seem intellectual and spread information.
What, I should distance myself from people who believe in the value of peer review and the scientific method? Should I try getting in bed with the cranks and weirdoes who say all the pseudo-rebellious nonsense you do?

Conspiracy nuts really are a force for the status quo. No wonder I fear for the United States' scientific future.
You shouldn't need to be ashamed because you know your place in society.
An ideal society gives everyone an equality of opportunity. Those who have the drive and the talent, regardless of some smug individual's evaluation of their background, are the ones who will grasp those opportunities and succeed.

Many smug, closed-minded individuals told scientists and other great thinkers their place in society was at the heels of those in power, or bound to false laws of nature. Science and civilization are inmical to those preconceptions.

I close with Qualia Soup's most excellent video on what open-mindedness really means:


136 comments:

Tom Foss said...

Great post, BD. From where I'm sitting, Gabe's argument boils down to "My perceptions are completely representative, my interpretations of those perceptions--filtered through my biases and preconceptions--are clearly perfect and count as evidence, and correlation therefore equals causation." Also, red herring, ad hominem, and cherry-picking of history, with some weaselly spin to boot: i.e., whites "conquered" Europe, but negroids were just "living on the savanna." It couldn't possibly be a sort of punctuated equlibrium as applied to cultural development, where the cultures on the periphery, outside of the natural habitat, faced different conditions which forced them to adapt differently, while the relatively stable environment of the Africans required little changes to a lifestyle that worked and kept them atop the food chain over the majority of the continent. This is the lesson of evolution: change only sticks when it's necessary, and there's no use changing what works.

The other lesson of evolution is that "superior" and "inferior" are completely subjective standards. I'm curious how "lazy" that life was on the savanna. Isn't there a whole cottage industry of television devoted to taking lazy, opulent white people and putting them among indigenous populations where they actually have to do real work? Gabe's argument is utterly inconsistent--Africans and South Americans are "lazy," but also technologically backward...and yet, one of the prime uses of technology is to give people more leisure time and make life easier. Laziness is a lot easier in first-world nations than in third-world ones--which is why you don't find the "nerdy LARPer WoW geek" stereotype in third-world countries. Superiority and inferiority can only be judged according to pre-determined factors; Gabe has clearly decided that the only factor which really matters is melanin production.

Gabe complains that there's no research on how whites are better than the other races, then laments that such research can't be done because it's not PC. This really just shows his ignorance of the literature. I mean, even I could at least cite The Bell Curve; it was never peer-reviewed and it's since been exposed as terribly flawed, but at least it's clear and unambiguous proof that such research can be and has been conducted and published within the last 15 years. Maybe Gabe just can't stand that it suggested that East Asians were "superior" to whites. In any case, I've read various analyses of the research on race--it is done, it is published, and it's a large part of why we have those haplotype maps that trace the spread of humans through time--and it consistently shows that there is greater genetic variation within "racial groups" than there is between them. This isn't a surprising finding, since "race" is socially-constructed. What we call "black" in America covers a wide range of skin tones--many of which are indistinguishable from other races--and various other features. What we call "Asian" covers a wide variety of groups, which in Asia are recognized as distinct racial groups. What we call "Hispanic" covers people from all over the Americas, but not the Spanish, who "look" European. I've noticed various features that I associate with the British, which makes me wonder if "white" shouldn't also be subdivided. The lines we draw with regard to race are not represented in any objective standards.

Lacking objectivity could be Gabe's middle name. His entire argument is based on subjective observation of subjectively-defined groups, and the assumption that both are representative of objective reality.

Jason said...

I used to think like Gabe. Not the rampant racism, just the subtle and naive assumption that my internal dialogue was a valid source of information in this world and that everyone else operated the same way I did. Add in the Oprah-esque assertion that it’s OK for my feelings on a topic come first as long as they are followed by my intellect’s post-hoc rationalization of the situation and a little intelligence went a long way towards ensuring I was a *smart* person who believed weird things. I was lost in a world of equally valid opinions, although (predictably) mine were a little more valid that most. If I had been travelling the world at that point I’m sure that I too would have developed the ‘personal confidence boost’ I needed to be absolutely 100% sure of myself on topics that I was barely educated in.

The difference is that I discovered a book by Carl Sagan and I learned what Science is and why it is necessary for a clear view of the world. I read about Richard Feynman and I developed a love of finding things out and a reverence for the natural world. I read Ben Goldacre and I learned about logical fallacies, statistics, trail design, the media and even a little bit about psychology. I read Richard Dawkins and I began to understand the depths of scientific knowledge we humans have amassed and I gained a respect for the people who dedicate themselves to furthering this knowledge for the good of mankind. I learned I can be wrong and how to go about reducing the chance I was wrong. I got cautions about making unfounded assertions and making assumptions and I started to think about how I know what I know and if I really know it. The whole process was awesome and I will never see the world the same way again. I wouldn’t want to.

Gabe, I suggest you read something about science or watch some of the youtube videos that BD has linked to on critical thinking and scepticism. BD has shown the patience of a saint (phrase only) in helping you to see where you are going wrong here but you have demonstrated that you are incapable of understanding what he is offering you. Methinks this class is simply too advanced for you at this stage.

Valhar2000 said...

Have any of you ever seen a movie called "Torrente: El brazo tonto de la Ley"?

Santiago Segura, who plays the part of the protagonist, Torrente, once said in an interview that when they wrote lines for the character they were doing it based on the assumption that Torrente encapsulates the worst that a person can be.

Reading Gabe, it looks like he himself is nmaking stuff up based on that same premise. It's unbelievable.

Jacqueline said...

Dawkin's hairy testes! Thats the most comprehensive rebuttal I've ever seen!

Bravo Bronze Dog!


JS:)

Jacqueline said...

No doubt Gabe will sully The Bronze Blog again with more of his unbacked bluster. I just want to remind him of how out of reality he is. Gabe this is your paranoid fantasy clearly posted by you:

"Politically, you should be worried, Today we now have a negro as our Head of State. Someone that no doubt follows the negro policies. Imagine if he gets one of his 'National Healthcare plans' to go through, a way for him to spread HIV to the whites of America, he can force you to be condemned with HIV, maybe it has not sunk in
yet, maybe it will if that happens, when you know your expiration date, then you think 'Oh, maybe I should have listen to Gabe'.

Of course, you live in a delusional world, you think reality is not real..."


Ah, the irony of those last words!


JS;)

djfav said...

I see that Gabe has finally helped himself to a nice warm cup of shut the fuck up. At least for today.

Bronze Dog said...

Probably travel-related. At least it's given me a bit of time to enjoy the day and clean up my place.

djfav said...

Yes, dirty little colonialist trolls can be quite time consuming.

Jacqueline said...

djfav said...
I see that Gabe has finally helped himself to a nice warm cup of shut the fuck up. At least for today.



I have no doubt that we shall all have to endure some more of his gut churningly insipid anecdotes about how little black girls want to be deluded white misssionary Nazi idiots.

Gabe, you really are the saddest little conspiracy merchant I've ever seen on the net. You should team up with Orly Taitz. You two would make a fine couple (of patients in a psychiatric ward).



JS:)

Bronze Dog said...

So, Gabe, got any thoughts to share over on this post?

Gabriel said...

Well Bronze, my point was sort of proved with this post of yours, whatever you say they stand behind you, your followers that is.

If you where claiming the world was on a giant turtle, they would ridicule me for "denying" that fact and "believe" in the round-world theory.


I will respond properly when I can use my own computer (ie, so I can take your response and write a proper rebutal in notepad/word offline for you).

MWchase said...

Well Bronze, my point was sort of proved with this post of yours, whatever you say they stand behind you, your followers that is.

Because the fact that we all agree for a multitude of reasons, and have brought to bear a variety of counter-arguments all converging on the fact that you're most likely wrong is sure evidence of some form of quasi-malicious conformism.

Just like biologists clinging to the theory of evolution because that lets them think that religion is false</sarcasm>

As I see it, we're putting far more effort into rigorously refuting your claims than you are into spewing them. This is not equitable.

Bronze Dog said...

You'll definitely want to take your time composing that response, Gabe. You've apparently been putting a lot of effort into unlearning about me: You seem to know less about me than you did when I was just some guy commenting on a Pharyngula thread.

Tom Foss said...

As I see it, we're putting far more effort into rigorously refuting your claims than you are into spewing them. This is not equitable.

We're putting in more effort than these rantings deserve. I agree with djfav: this is like trying to rebut the grafitti on a bathroom wall. The guy's a full-on kook, and at this point the only reasonable thing is to get out the popcorn and put your feet up.

djfav said...

Gabe, if you can't find disagreements between commenters on this blog, then you must be illiterate. In fact, there was recently some disagreement between Bronze Dog and Tom Foss about the Maher incident. And you even showed up in that thread.

As always, fuck you, Gabe.

djfav said...

Tom, I think you mean MWchase, but thanks anyway. :p

Tom Foss said...

No, you've been treating these insubstantial ravings with exactly the consideration they deserve since the start. I just boiled it down to a pithy phrase.

djfav said...

Ah. My mistake. You were quoting MWchase, so I was confused. But thanks again!

Gabriel said...

Bronze, just popped by to check what you are up to, I have been writing a response but no access to wifi yet, but as a SIDE question, just curious; Do you think homosexuality is GENETICAL or CULTURAL?

Feel free to expand on it rather then just chose one option (or add another one?), would love to hear it.

Tom Foss said...

Gabe dropped this steaming insight onto one of my blogs:

hahahahha, what a fucking dork you are CARTOONS?

This just aces the "stereotype" complaint, hahhaha. Maybe some World of Warcraft is going ot chear you up boyo.


I'll lay off the atrocious spelling and grammar from someone who's trying to claim such superiority, he's wrong enough besides. Gabe, yes, I'm a dork, a geek, a nerd, and I frequently write about comic books and cartoons (the post you commented on was the former, but as we've noticed already, facts are not your strong suit). This is not a matter of shame for me--if it were, I wouldn't publicly blog about it. I heard basically the same stupid taunts in fourth grade (albeit I think those bullies had a better grasp of the English language), but unlike some, I grew up. Nice to see that the self-appointed Champion of White Supremacy has the emotional maturity of a grade school dropout.

Also, swing-and-a-miss with that stereotype, boyo. I've never played WoW, and I don't plan to.

It's funny; you clearly have this pressing need to feel superior to everyone else, whether it's by imagining that schoolyard cliques and social stratification somehow have any relevance to the world outside, or just imagining that your particular combination of skin and hair tones and facial structure implies that you're better than others. If I were the stereotyping type, I'd imagine that you've never been really good at anything--certainly not writing or thinking--so you put others down in order to puff up your fragile ego and mask your crushing insecurity; I'd guess that you've probably got a serious case of the micro-dick, and that you probably peaked sometime in high school. Good thing I'm not the kind of person who puts any stock into stereotypes.

See, Gabe, while you feel the need to loudly and baselessly proclaim superiority over everyone else, for reasons that I suspect even you realize are flimsier than the wet tissues that surround your bedroom, none of us have that pressing compulsion. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm secure in the knowledge that I'm not special; I'm better than some people at some things and others are better than me at some things, and none of it correlates well with the shape of our noses. But I will sleep a little more soundly tonight, secure in my superiority over a laughable little pissant like you.

As far as sexuality goes, I can't imagine any data that would show a societal component. What would that even look like? We know that there have been wide ranges of sexualities in both sexually liberal societies (modern Netherlands, ancient Greece) and sexually conservative ones (Victorian England, 1950s America).

Similarly, we know from animal behavior that homosexuality isn't limited to humans, and almost certainly has some genetic or environmental triggers.

As with most things, though, it's not an either-or situation. Sexuality in general (hetero, homo, bi, fetishism, etc.) is more complicated than there just being some gay or straight gene. All the evidence points to a confluence of factors: some genetic, some prenatal environmental (i.e., that mixture of hormones and proteins and such that spur various aspects of fetal development), and some occasionally relating to experiences during childhood or adolescence. How much of a role each of these components plays is unclear, and may differ from person to person.

In other words, Gabe, reality continues to resist your attempts to shove it into particular well-defined categories and split it into clear dichotomies.

MWchase said...

In the sidebar, that comment gets truncated in such a way that I expected 'cartography'.

I'm sad that I don't have anything else to add, but I'm awake at 3 AM for some reason, and all of my brain's filters are off, so you get this.

Jacqueline said...

Gabe, I know you're going to ignore my questions because you're a cowardly retard, but I'm going to ask them anyway.
Gabe, do you have any black ancestry?
Are you gay Gabe? Have you ever had sexual feelings for black men?

Its okay if you ignore these questions. After all, you close yourself off from uncomfortable truths in favour of your Nazi wankfest fantasies. You sad little buffoon.

JS:)

Jacqueline said...

Tom Foss posted:

"Gabe dropped this steaming insight onto one of my blogs.."

Looks like you've gotten to Gabe and really riled him up. Careful Tom, you might make Gabe cry!

JS;)

Bronze Dog said...

It's hilarious that Gabe makes a big deal out of our geekiness, as if that's something to be ashamed of. Or relevant to the argument.

Jacqueline said...

"It's hilarious that Gabe makes a big deal out of our geekiness, as if that's something to be ashamed of. Or relevant to the argument."


In this case Gabe tried desperately to get a rise out of Tom, and failed.
Maybe Gabe should be allowed to sock puppet some support for his racist rantings before he has a complete breakdown and starts ranting about D&D 4th edition being part of a plot to give Obama magical control of white American males.
Wasn't his last sock puppet called Sara? We could let him post with that persona as well.
JS;)

Tom Foss said...

If I could do a bit of armchair psychoanalysis, my guess would be that Gabe treats stereotypes the way some people treat conspiracy theories and doomsday prophecies. These things allow believers to impose a kind of order on the universe, using the beliefs as a cognitive filter through which all events or observations can be explained. Not only that, but the beliefs also confer a sense of specialness and/or superiority on the believer, that otherwise they might not have. We saw this with Debra--she's just a single mom, but by believing her conspiracy theories, she's able to become one of the select few, the Army of Light, who can see through the government's terrible schemes and survive the coming apocalypse while all us sheeple are herded into slavery and death.

I suspect Gabe's the same way; by accepting every racist stereotype he's ever heard (along with a host of cultural stereotypes by way of the high school cafeteria), he's able to filter all perceptions of other people so that everyone fits into a specific, well-defined category. And he's able (the way conspiracy nutters make evidence against the conspiracy into evidence for the conspiracy) to ad-hoc rationalize every counter-example so that even the ones that don't fit his scheme still fit his scheme. And so we have that white people are superior and smarter and everyone else is lazy, but so are the nerds who play WoW all day and who are overwhelmingly white, but they're nerds so apparently they don't count. Asians are all hookers or illegal immigrants, and the only reason they're outperforming us is because they're jealous parasites. All innovation and technology is white-created, and the ones that weren't were just stolen from whites. The cognitive dissonance is amazing, but really it's par for the course from woo-woos of all types. As with any such framework, it exists to give the believer a sense of control and a feeling of special knowledge and superiority over others.

The real value of this conversation, I think, is that it's been an interesting exposé on how racism is just another form of woo-belief, resting on the exact same fallacies and tactics as creationism and conspiracy kookery. To that end, Gabe has been a very instructive example.

DwellerinDarkness said...

"Do you think homosexuality is GENETICAL or CULTURAL?"
You mean, "genetic?"

Not at all relevant to the argument. You might as well ask if preference for the Boston Red Sox - another trait found in humans - is genetic, if you're using this question to bolster your contention that cognition impairment has a genetic component based on race.

Bronze Dog said...

And that's one reason why I've been feeding him: He's a poster boy for woo. The fact that he chose "race" as a topic to be a woo about isn't relevant: What interests me is that he uses the same cliche tactics.

But he doesn't bother to pay attention to that. He just wants an excuse to verbally abuse WoW players and Wikipedia worshipers that don't exist in these threads.

Any literate person should be scratching his head about how Gabe ever got to that point.

Gabriel said...

Bronze, are you going to respond to the question?

Are Homosexuality Cultural or Genetically related?

Gabriel said...

Something I do not understand with
people like you is the obscene denial
of facts and the real world. Bronze
Dog himself has shown this attitude
very aggressively when forced to
answer obvious facts that goes against
his belief.


Lets take the fact of negro inferiority
to begin with:

It seems to be a "matter of fact" that
negriods, according to Bronze Dog and
other similar people, are equal to Whites,
they have equally superior societies,
they create the same technologies and
they have the same understanding we
do.

But for some reason, reality does not
really agree with this. Most of the
poorest and backwards nations on the
planet of ours are, yes indeed, Negriod
nations. This is, I guess, a mere coincidence
and some negriod nations are equal to,
say America.

But once again, fact gets in the way,
I do not know of any negriod nation
that is even close to first world status,
albeit, there could be, would love to
hear about it as I suspect, similar
to South Africa, that it would be White
influence that made it better depending
on control the white where allowed.


Now lets take any negriod nation, say
Congo. Congo is a wealthy and advanced
nation in Africa, they have very good
education as well as an impressive medical
care free for everyone......

That is Bronze Dog's reality, as Negriods
are equal to whites
. Unfortunately, Reality
once again comes and bite us in the bum,
Congo is a third world nation with huge
amount of crime, corruption, murder as
well as an impressive HIV rate, that is
the reality for most negriod nations. Congo
is for the record a very dangerous country
to go to, especially as a white american,
but really for anyone.


Now, if we would have a look at the the
most advanced and powerful nation on
the planet, United States of America,
you would find some similar problems in
a specific area, where the negriod and
spics live.

Once again, Bronze Dog seem to want to
make that a mere coincidence, that people
of Negriod nations, poor, backwards violent
and stupid seem to create the same type
of culture wherever they are.

->

Gabriel said...

If you leave does and go to the White
Areas, you see a life they and most of
the world could only dream of. Even in
the working class areas of America there
is joy and wonder, as long as they are
white. It seems the 'darker' it gets
the darker it seems (thats a pun). But
once again, Bronze Dog has decided that
this is a mere coincidence.

He gives no explanation to this and I
ask, once again, if it looks like a duck,
sounds like a duck and smells like a
duck, isn't most likely a duck....

Negriods are universally inferior, all
negriod societies, whatever it may be
a nation in Africa or a domestic 'society'
they made themselves in America becomes
violent, backwards and really really bad.

That one or two negriods that can read and
write does not change this, this seems
to be your excuse, you take some negriod,
say tiger woods, and say "see, you are
wrong, he is terrific and got money therefore
all facts are invalidated". It does not
work like that, you take the general
population, not single individuals.


Is it not A SIGN OF INFERIORITY?
If niggers create a society with violence,
HIV, corruption and war, making it impossible
to live a good and decent life, and then when
moved to the greatest nation in the world THEY:
create a new society that mimics the one
they had in Africa
...

Shouldn't this say something?
Bronze?


What it boils down to is this; You claim
that if we put the White and Black population
in different kind of environments, say African
Savanna and New York, they will become just
like their environments, isn't that correct?

The problem is, it has already been done!
In America we call the areas with negroids and spics
GHETTOS or SLUMS, thats where the majority
of negros and spics live, thats the life
they have chosen. Whites decided a different
path with technology, medicine and knowledge.
Our own society provides you with the answer,
of course, you will not accept that, let me
guess, it is a conspiracy by the government
to throw dirt on anyone with the "wrong complection",
am I right? Comeone, lets hear it, I would
love to here your excuse for this, or maybe
UFO's came and are doing a social experiment
and the blacks just happened to be the one
getting the wrong end of the stick, correct?

How do you explain that mister smartypants?

Gabriel said...

Added: As I realize most of you never travelled (already confirmed that), I was specifically talking about Democratic Republi of Congo (DRC) not Republic of Congo, they are culturally very similar but DRC is much worse.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe:

Bronze, are you going to respond to the question?

Are Homosexuality Cultural or Genetically related?


I'll go with essentially Tom's response: Mostly genetic, with some congenital factors. Of course, I fail to see the relevance.

[Gabe's correlation equals causation fallacy written entirely too long, with lies about me inserted in it, snipped for the character limit]

1. I never suggested African nations were equal with the US. They're pretty crappy, overall. I never, ever denied this, so why must you continually lie to prop yourself up?

2. Correlation does not equal causation, unless you intend to suggest all scientists and philosophers are liars.

3. Your racial hypothesis requires denying the existence of human individuality, the philosophy of science, the necessity of resources, human nature, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

[About the blacks I experienced and mentioned]

I'm not talking about merely being literate, I'm talking about being able to take and succeed at Master's level college courses. Is being a college graduate seeking further education so trivial an accomplishment?

I suppose all the black students I see around here, and the satellite-launching Indians I saw up at UT Dallas were all just similar flukes.

Of course, you fail to appreciate the sheer degree of contradiction they represent, if you actually think genetics are involved.

Is it not A SIGN OF INFERIORITY?
If niggers create a society with violence, HIV, corruption and war...


Not when you can't give us any means of connecting the two beyond correlation. Especially if you continually refuse to define race in a manner that would allow it to have the effects you claim. Without a definition and causal agent, it's all just witchcraft.

[Reference to American ghettos]

You do realize that artificial economic and social boundaries placed on previous generations can't be wiped away that easily. It's only been a few decades since segregation ended. Of course, IIRC, black crime rates have been going down since then, as well as crime in general. Got anything that shows otherwise?

People born into poverty tend to remain in poverty. Despite having some social mobility in the US, it's still not perfect.

Additionally, using your so-called logic, I could argue that "rednecks" are genetically inferior, and thus they should 'know their place' and not bother studying hard in school. That's pretty much what blacks went through for many generations over here, but you just seem to ignore that little fact.

And, despite all that defensive tripe and lying about all my views, you're still wetting your pants when someone dares to ask you for genetic data or control for these alternative explanations.

Perhaps you'd like to cite some actual genetic data, rather than going on anti-science diatribes copied from the superstitious and theories of genetics that say all biologists are liars.

What genes cause these alleged behaviors? Where are they most prevalent?

As for the UFO explanation, that sounds like something you'd use to explain how white people rose out of the Dark Age: Aliens came down and stole the smart, civilized genes from the Arab scholars who were advancing science and mathematics at the time and transferred them to the white people living in superstition, burning people for not believing in their particular superstition.

That reminds me: Given your worship of newage (rhymes with sewage) anecdotalism, how did you manage NOT to become the most superstitious person on Earth?

Bronze Dog said...

One big contradiction you have to realize, Gabe: For me to accept only correlation as evidence, I would simultaneously have to accept that scientists are wrong about the nature of logic and science.

Doesn't it seem strange for you to praise "whites" for producing great scientists while simultaneously spitting on the foundations of science?

Gabriel said...

Okay, lets make it simple: HOW DO YOU, BRONZE DOG, EXPLAIN THAT EVERYWHERE NEGROS GO DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ENTAILS?

Africans moved to America continue their vile behaviour, In Africa they get it good if WHITES get a chance to control the society etc, Are you truly going to live in denial?

You use SINGLE INDIVIDUALS to EXCUSE an entire Race, that is just tragic, can't you see that? You point out one guy doing something ignoring the ENTIRE RACE actual history (not to mention that the ones showing promise and understanding is educated by US the WHITES).

Explain Bronze, you have to have some sort of advanced explanation to this strange Coincidence? Do you not?

Bronze Dog said...

Let's make this simple, Gabe: SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS A FALLACY. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION IS A FALLACY.

Right now, I don't have to provide a better explanation. You just have to provide one that beats "I don't know." Even if I were unable to come up with an exact explanation for anything, you'd still be in trouble: Just because your opponent can't come up with an explanation doesn't mean yours is right.

You use SINGLE INDIVIDUALS to EXCUSE an entire Race, that is just tragic, can't you see that?

You're functionally illiterate. That's not why I brought those people up.

You point out one guy doing something ignoring the ENTIRE RACE actual history (not to mention that the ones showing promise and understanding is educated by US the WHITES).

You really need to stop lying about what I've said. I do take history into account. I simply point out that your supernatural theory of genetics is a bad explanation because it requires denying human nature as a species that advances by learning.

Oh, and how does the education coming from "whites" negate the fact that he can understand it? From what I've been able to gather (since you run away from any inquiry into what the hell you're actually arguing about), you believe the kryptonite in "Negro" DNA would render his understanding magically impossible.

Explain Bronze, you have to have some sort of advanced explanation to this strange Coincidence? Do you not?

A mixture of many powerful forces known "culture," "economics," "resources," etcetera.

Of course, you don't believe in that sort of magic, so the only possible explanation, since your infinite imagination can't dream of anything else, must be kryptonite in their DNA, which doesn't show up on genetic studies because it's undetectable.

Bronze Dog said...

Oh, and Gabe: The differences between "white" and "black" prosperity in the US have been shrinking since we started making efforts to treat everyone equally.

Just like psychic powers diminish whenever tighter controls are put on the experiment.

Just like homeopathy's efficacy vanishes as they improve the controls.

That's yet another reason I disbelieve in this "race" theory of yours: The better the controls, the weaker the effect.

Now, if you could bother to define what you're talking about so that we can actually look at the DNA, we might find this elusive kryptonite you claim exists in the "negro" genome.

Gabriel said...

Let's make this simple, Gabe: SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS A FALLACY. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION IS A FALLACY.

You are fucking me in the ass, are you serious? Shifting the burden of proof when I ask you to explain how this would work?

I show you the FACTS, the EVIDENCE THE WORLD HAS GIVEN, and you say its just imagination, so I ask you to explain how come Africa is backwards and poor, and Negros in America is backwards and poor and so on, its a CLEAR related line here..

But you dont want to touch it, YOU are shifting the burden, I explained I have given, you say "NO its not so" and All I ask is for you to explain How come it it is like that, if my theory is incorrect? I follow the scientific method here little Bronze, I provided Evidence (the world) and showing you from all areas of the world as well as pointed that a SMALL percentage (minimal) has, with the help of Whites) become almost equal to us in understanding albeit that is rather irrelevant to the entire Societies consisting of niggers. Yet, We are Equal... Equal means something other then same value in this sense, I guess.

Tom Foss said...

The irony train keeps rolling. I love that Gabe can say this:

Something I do not understand with people like you is the obscene denial of facts and the real world.

And then in the very next paragraph, say this:

Lets take the fact of negro inferiority to begin with

Gabe, what you've done here is demonstrate that you don't know what a fact is. "Inferiority" and "superiority" are not facts, they are judgments and must be made with respect to some set of criteria. Since you haven't defined any criteria by which to judge whether one race is superior or inferior to others, and since there are no generally agreed-upon criteria to decide that, all of your judgments of superiority and inferiority are completely subjective. Facts, by contrast, are things which can be objectively observed.

When I said that the facts clearly don't matter to you, I didn't realize how right I was. Apparently, they matter so little to you that you have no idea what they are.

As usual, your argument boils down to selection bias (ignoring completely any blacks or latinos who don't fit your mold, as well as the entire category of "poor white trash") and correlation-causation fallacies (ignoring that there may be--and almost certainly are--other causes for the trends you claim to perceive, namely social injustice, institutionalized and internalized racism, and the vicious cycle of poverty).

This is particularly hilarious:

HOW DO YOU, BRONZE DOG, EXPLAIN THAT EVERYWHERE NEGROS GO DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ENTAILS?

Gosh, Gabe, I can't imagine. Remember how Christopher Columbus basically committed genocide against an entire island nation through advanced technology and germ warfare? Recall the Crusades, where Europeans carved a swath of destruction across eastern Europe and the Middle East, in order to kill all the Arabs? Remember the conquistadors? The pioneers? The Nazis? Apparently, all of them negroes.

Or maybe it's just that wherever humans go, death and destruction follow. Particularly wherever humans encounter different humans. In fact, I think you'll find that in the vast majority of prominent wars, genocides, bloody conquests, and atrocities in the world, so-called "negroes" haven't been the instigators.

You selectively ignore large swaths of population, statistics, and history in order to make your arguments, base your certainty on your travels and subjective observations, then claim that BD is trying to judge the entire race based on individuals? Rich, Gabe.

And throughout all this, you have yet to provide a shred of evidence to actually link race and your subjective "inferiority" criteria. If such a factor existed, shouldn't it be genetic? Why is it that every genetic study shows greater diversity within racial groups than between them? What is your evidence for positing race as the cause?

I know, it's a rhetorical question, and one you don't seem to understand the significance of. If you had evidence, you would have already provided it. Instead, you provide fallacies and prejudice.

Tom Foss said...

Oh, and BD: the Kryptonite thing is brilliant. Good show.

Gabriel said...

Oh, and BD: the Kryptonite thing is brilliant. Good show.

Hahhaa, hahah, yeah, soooo funny.... Other then, of course, he did not respond to my simple question as well as called a fallacy on me rather then answering...

I was surprised I got a respond to the question about faggots... So, Bronze, you believe Homosexuals are genetically encoded somehowto be fags, as well as somewhere in their 'development' they get this 'gay' gene, you did say congenital and 'mostly' genetic, right?

Out of curiousity, are you gay?

Tom Foss said...

Gabe, did you consciously choose your sexuality? Why do you think anyone else would be different? If your explanation for homosexuality is different from biological factors (which, by the way, is what all the scientific evidence implicates), then why has homosexuality shown up in every human society throughout recorded history?

And why would BD's sexuality be relevant? You realize that ad hominem is just another fallacy, right?

Bronze Dog said...

Out of curiousity, are you gay?

No.

Out of curiosity, why are you so desperate to change the subject?

And as for how I called out a fallacy on your question: Why is the demand for you to be logical "telling"? Why is asking you to describe and mount a defense for your argument instead of changing the standards "telling"?

Are you now going to spit in the eye of basic logic, too?

It's getting to be pretty sad if you have to keep throwing up subject changes and meaningless hoops for us to jump through. You're the advocate, so you're the one who has to do the leg work.

Why are you stalling on answering such simple questions about what your "theory" is?

Every time we ask you for more information, you change the subject or demand that we overturn the whole of logic and science because your little theory can't take the scrutiny.

I even went so far as to make a thread specifically for you to define what the hell you're talking about. Over a hundred comments in, and you're still stalling for time.

And now you're ever so desperate that you have to once again change the subject to some irrelevant (and nonexistent) triviality about your opponents. (That's called an ad hominem fallacy and/or poisoning the well fallacy, for your information.)

What fuels these glowing neon signs of desperation, Gabe? Why can't you just outline what the hell you're arguing?

Grow some spine!

Bronze Dog said...

Back on topic:

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that all white scientists are in a conspiracy to lie about how they succeeded.

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that white humans are more akin to mindless insects genetically predetermined to discover than they are akin to apes.

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that the human genome can contain the blueprints for an aeroplane that will eventually spontaneously appear inside the brain of a pair of bicycle repairmen.

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that the scientific method and the logic it was founded on can be overturned specifically for this one theory, but not for anything else because it can't stand the scrutiny of being examined for logical fallacies.

Hence calling Gabriel out for logical fallacies is wrong because he says so.

Rick said...

Gabe, you still haven't answered the very basic question of:

What, exactly, do you mean when you say white?


I can keep asking this question at least as many times are you are willing to ignore and avoid it.

Jacqueline said...

Gabriel said...

"Out of curiousity, are you gay?"

Bronze, he is propositioning you.
Gabe, can't bring himself to have sex with a black man but he finds your skeptical, rationalist wikipedia reading white ass perfectly acceptable!

JS;)

Gabriel said...

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that all white scientists are in a conspiracy to lie about how they succeeded.

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that white humans are more akin to mindless insects genetically predetermined to discover than they are akin to apes.

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that the human genome can contain the blueprints for an aeroplane that will eventually spontaneously appear inside the brain of a pair of bicycle repairmen.

Gabe's racial theory for "whiteness" promoting scientific discovery requires believing that the scientific method and the logic it was founded on can be overturned specifically for this one theory, but not for anything else because it can't stand the scrutiny of being examined for logical fallacies.

Hence calling Gabriel out for logical fallacies is wrong because he says so.


False.

1. I have provided evidence such as my own experience and knowledge of the world as well as world statistics showing the backwards negriod nations compared tothe white ones.

2. You are the one without a spine here, I asked you, straight out after I provded my facts (which you asked for) "Why" it is not valid, I did not get an explanation, I simple got a "You are wrong, lalalallala".


Please, once again, I X Negro nation Versus Y White nation is always inferior, Why?

X Negro people moved to Y White society always creates a horrible and destructive society similar to the one they had themselves, this goes against your "Meme is the problem" and "They are poor" mantra you continue to spout, America offers them everything they could dream of, what they do is to create ghettos filed with violence, crime rape and murder. We have the evidence for it in America, as well as negros and spics have a much much higher crime rate then whites.

Of course, its "all a conspiracy" and you do not answer my question I ask you (short and simple, always) whiles I given mine which you decide is not "valid".

Bronze Dog said...

You really are functionally illiterate and cowardly, Gabe.

Ever since you arrived, you've claimed to have an explanation for that phenomenon. Yet when we ask for it to explain phenomena like HOW whiteness causes scientific progress, you have to make a fallacious appeal to ignorance by pretending that I have to come up with a better explanation so that you can continue stalling.

I bet you're regretting not humoring me by explaining the philosophy of science, now: Your desperate evasion has painted you into a corner: If you can't explain how whiteness causes scientific progress, it's no better than screaming, "magic!" and waggling your fingers spookily.

Face it, Gabe, without a causal mechanism for "whiteness" to cause this scientific progress, you might as well be arguing that whiteness magically makes ideas appear in white people's heads.

So, how's it going to be Gabe? Are you going to define "whiteness" and tell us HOW it explains scientific progress?

Oh, and correlation equals causation is still a logical fallacy. Or are you going to argue that logic is a scientific conspiracy that also happens to work by dumb luck alone?

Gabriel said...

So you can not explain why the White nations are superior to negro ones, and therefore niggers inferior to whites (as their nations are inferior, so are the people)?

Thankyou for admitting it, The White Race is Superior, you have admitted that you can not Deny this, but claim because I haven't explained (something) It is not true. Hhahaha. funny indeed.


Maybe you, as you deny this inbetween once and awhile, should move to Africa and never come back to America and THEN you might accept it, yes? Or no, its not 'suitable' or practical, right? Saying words and using White Technology is good for you, not go to Africa they are... Different.

Jacqueline said...

Gabe wrote:
"I have provided evidence such as my own experience and knowledge of the world as well as world statistics showing the backwards negriod nations compared to the white ones."


False. You have provided ANECDOTES. Which are just about the crappiest form of "evidence" there is. Where are the "world statistics" you're ranting about?
did the ghost of Adolf hitler provide you with those as well?


JS:)

Bronze Dog said...

World statistics? I never saw you post genetic data or control for alternative causation.

So far, all I've gotten out of you is de facto conspiracy theories: Your hypothesis that whiteness magically causes scientific progress requires a believe that all the great scientists are lying about the keys to their success.

If you want to argue that it's not a conspiracy, you'll have to provide a plausible way that whiteness could cause scientific progress. Without that, all I can do is presume that you think "white" DNA magically absorbs knowledge from the akashic record and bestows it on "white" scientists with no mechanism.

Jacqueline said...

Gabe blustered:
"Thankyou for admitting it, The White Race is Superior, you have admitted that you can not Deny this, but claim because I haven't explained (something) It is not true. Hhahaha. funny indeed."

IF the "white race" is superior that kind of ejects you from its ranks then Gabe.
Funny indeed that you lack the basic rationality to indulge in proper debate,and fail to recognize that you're constantly running away from peoples' questions. That makes you an INFERIOR debater, and therefore you aren't of the superior folk.
That is the logic of your situation Gabe.
You fail to see that we're all laughing at you like we'd laugh at the village idiot that tries to grab the reflection of the moon in a pool.


JS:)

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe:

So you can not explain why the White nations are superior to negro ones, and therefore niggers inferior to whites (as their nations are inferior, so are the people)?

More functional illiteracy. I've already explained it by referring to the powerful and diverse causes known as culture, economics, and social structure. All you can do in reply is claim that those things don't exist.

The point, Gabe, is that:

1. Your hypothesis can't explain why white nations are superior. We've been asking you for an explanation in detail, but you kept changing subjects and arguing that logic is illogical.

2. Even though I have an explanation, I don't need to present it in this argument: You're the one who claimed to have a useful explanation, but chicken out of using it to actually explain anything.

You're no different that some Uri Geller fan: Just because I don't have an exact explanation for all his tricks beyond "stage magic," you're asking me to believe in an undefined force that tell us everything we know is wrong.

You're asking me to believe that all the research and experimentation involved in science is meaningless, as well: Why bother with all that hard work and criticism if white genes will magically reveal the same facts.

Sorry, Gabe, but science doesn't work by divine or genetic revelation. You believe it does, and if you're right about genetic revelation, it means every scientist is lying about how they discovered the things they did.

Bronze Dog said...

The problem with Gabe's philosophy of science: It requires a belief that my problem solving process for everyday tasks, and the same general process scientists use to establish causation works by genetic revelation when whites do it, and when a black person applies the same technique to the same problems, it's just dumb luck.

Tom Foss said...

Gabe, perhaps before you go claiming superiority over anyone, you should learn how to read. Your chronic illiteracy is only making you look like an idiot. It's clear that either you're not reading what Bronze Dog (or anyone else) has said, and so you have to invent your own stupid misunderstandings of their arguments to flail against. Nothing you've said here looks anything like what anyone else here has said, and none of the anecdotes or prejudices you've provided meet any standards of evidence. Even your "experiences" have been repeatedly exposed as exaggerations and selection bias.

Your arguments are self-contradictory; your blind faith in magical stereotypes is obvious; your "evidence" is hearsay at best; you have yet to provide any criteria by which to judge "inferior" and "superior" societies; you do not understand how correlation and causation are different; you have an incredibly skewed and selective perception of history, the world, and the United States ("America offers them everything they could dream of"--what, did you learn about America from 1950s TV?); you don't understand what facts are; and at every turn you dodge pertinent questions, invent ad hoc rationalizations, and fall back on ridiculous fallacies rather than supporting your point.

And yet you've erected your lily-white flag on this rotting heap of an argument and declared victory. I think there's a river in Egypt that you ought to become acquainted with.

Bronze Dog said...

Well summarized, Tom.

It leaves me to wonder if Gabe's ever set foot in America.

Gabriel said...

Erh? You wonder if a Proud American ever set his foot in America? That must be one of the weirdest and stupidest thing I ever heard. But wait, that could explain it, YOU never been anywhere outside of our borders so maybe you consider anyone that has the money and bravery to travel the world UNAMERICAN? Am I right? Sorry, I do not hold ignorance to high, as you do, I want to KNOW how great my nation is, and I DO IT by travelling the world, NO PLACE IS AS GOOD AS AMERICA!

Are you even american? You cearly show no respect for our history and what we done to the world. GOD BLESS AMERICA, The most advanced and powerful nation on the planet, and it just happens to be White, What a coincidence.

Bronze Dog said...

Gabe, it's an exaggeration of how out of touch you are with America and science. Duh.

How science works according to...

Bronze Dog and your average scientist: Typical human genes -> Observe phenomenon -> Form hypothesis that makes predictions about phenomenon -> Perform experiment to see if the predictions come true -> Peer review and replication -> Reject, revise hypothesis in the face of contradictory evidence -> Repeat until your hypothesis consistently and accurately predicts all observations without being contradicted by any.

Gabe: "White" genes -> ??? -> Profit!, er, Science!

Tom Foss said...

You cearly show no respect for our history and what we done to the world.

And you clearly show no knowledge of our history (or our present) and what we've done to the world. You have (pardon the pun) a whitewashed view of American history, apparently ignoring or justifying every atrocity and assigning every innovation to the "whites."

Bronze Dog said...

It's also funny because Gabe here is the one minimizing the accomplishments of scientist by claiming all scientific progress is sheer genetic accident, instead of the combined efforts of countless people hoping to make a better tomorrow.

Gabe, after all, doesn't believe in scientific rigor, which is why he won't submit to any.

Gabe thinks scientists are pre-programmed insects, after all, and that individuality is an illusion manufactured in their conspiracy.

Bronze Dog said...

The bottom line: I think America is wonderful because it supports wonderful cultural values like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, rewards scholarship, provides stability from a pride in associating those ideals with our national identity, strong morals in regards to human rights, etcetera. America, at least the ideal I have of America promotes all those empowering memes, which in turn make scientific progress easier.

Gabe, however, thinks all those memes contributed nothing to it, and only loves America because he thinks some magic viking spell cast by the founding fathers just happened to work for no reason.

Bronze Dog said...

My oversimplified view of how Europe got to the Iron Age: Iron was more plentiful in Europe. It's merely coincidence that the iron and good foodstuffs happened to be in a temperate climate that confers an advantage to white skin.

Gabe's theory of how Europe got to the Iron Age: White genes conferred the people with psychic powers to magnetically draw the iron in the ground closer to the surface where it could be mined. They did similar things with nourishing plants, using druidic blood magic to make turnips and such amendable to temperate climates.

DwellerinDarkness said...

*puts up hand*

I'm from Canada. We like our negroes. Well, we like Asians, negroes, Hispanics and just about anyone else looking for a decent place to live.

That I've noticed, they've caused minimal destruction. Admittedly, they've left less of a wake than American negroes apparently have, but we didn't get most of our through institutionalized slavery. That may be a factor.

Rick said...

Gabe, we're still waiting for you to get around to defining what you mean by 'white'.

Why are you finding that such a hard question to answer? Perhaps it's because you know your definition will make you look silly, or will contradict part of your position?

djfav said...

Guess I missed out on all the fun this weekend. Right now my laptop is totally fucked, so I'm having to use the browser on my PS3, which is infuriating. But now that I'm at work...

I had no idea that people chose to live in ghettos and slums, and that Africans first moved here in large numbers voluntarily.

/sarcasm

Gabe, you're a fucking moron.

Jimmy Blue said...

*Pokes head in to see if Gabriel has defined what he means by 'white' yet*

Nope, what a surprise. Because you can't can you, racist tool?

Bronze Dog said...

And without a working definition, we're left to guess how this undefined thing is supposed to explain America's greatness.

Of course, we all know it was really the various resources, educational systems, and a culture of freedom that made it possible for US scientists to achieve greatness.

But Gabe apparently believes those things contribute nothing to the process of discovery.

Jacqueline said...

Perhaps Gabe suffers from an overdose of midiclorian like "whiteons" that magically confer superior mental and physical traits to him and all other "whiteon" infested individuals?

JS:)

Anonymous said...

Hello there fellow Atheist´s!

I am one of these "idlers" just reading the newest diatribe from Gabe boy (I've enjoyed it for quite some time now), but actually wanted to point someting out that really annoyed me.

Gabe seems rather determined that the United States is "the greatest" and neither of you seem unaware of the falsehood of this claim. Maybe it's because most of you are American(?), but I am, as atleast one other (I saw) Swedish, and for me the U.S is something similar to a Third World Nation.

It has all the characteristics of one: Large amount of Poverty, Poor Education, Isolation (very few americans go abroad, which Gabe continue to point out), Celebration of Ignorance (Atheism/Knowledge is seen as something bad) and, of course, Aggressive Patriotism/Violence if someone points out that their fantasy is indeed false, the hallmark of a Third World/Isolated people.

How come neither of you point this out to him? Or could it be, and this worries me, that you also believe this, just as Gabe does?

Bronze Dog said...

One thing at a time, friendly delurker. ;)

There are some ideals that make America a good place to live, and we've got some really spiffy accomplishments, but I wouldn't say we're the greatest nation:

We've still got a LOT of crap to deal with, like the health care disparity between us and Europe, education reforms that need to be made while anti-intellectuals manage to rouse up purposeless opposition to science, all that crap Bush put us through and Obama isn't doing much to undo it, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I still believe in "American" ideals (and I'm quite glad we have a lot of those in common with modern Europe, hence the quotation marks), and think America can be a force for humanity and scientific progress. But, of course, like many bloggers I know, there's muck to be raked. I just occasionally feel the need to put on my rose-colored glasses and see the good side of things.

Dunc said...

Heh... I'm from the UK, and while I've mainly being staying out of this for the sake of my sanity, I did notice a hefty dose of American Exceptionalism... I just made a tactical decision not to challenge that when there's so much other nonsense in there that should be easier to deal with - after all, if Gabe can't accept that his cherished racial categories are bunk, or that there's this thing called "history", then he's not going to accept a challenge to his notions of what constitutes "best".

In a very target-rich environment, sometimes you can't hit 'em all.

Looking back though, I do notice one other thing I want to comment on:

My oversimplified view of how Europe got to the Iron Age: Iron was more plentiful in Europe. It's merely coincidence that the iron and good foodstuffs happened to be in a temperate climate that confers an advantage to white skin.

Actually, Europe got both iron working and agriculture from the Near- and Middle-East thanks to cultural migration. I believe iron working was first developed around the shores of the Black Sea. (Whether that counts as "Europe" or "Near East" is debatable, of course). Neither was originally developed by "white" people, and it's something of an open question as to exactly what skin tone those early Europeans had and to what extent the cultural migration of iron working techniques was accompanied by the large scale migration of actual people.

Oh, and iron was being smelted in sub-Saharan Africa around 500 years before it was in Europe proper. ;)

Dweller in Darkness said...

... as evidence by the tendency, in medieval texts, to refer to the finest metals as "Damascus steel."

Gabriel said...

A Response to the Nigger...


Okay, I do not know if he or she is a nigger, I know, and most likely he or she isn´t, but I use it as a insult.

United States of America created SPACE ROCKETS AND FLEW TO THE MOON!

United States of America saved the free world from dictatorship and communism!

United States of America consist of people that consider living in a House, having only one car as poor whiles most of the rest of the world (its people) Dream of having one.

United States of America is the light of Freedom for people everywhere and people flock to get here (legally ad well as illegally).

No Nation compared to us in STRENGTH and TECHNOLOGY, Nations dream of being like America and alot of them are ANGRY because they will never be and show their jealousy with hatred.


We Are The Greatest thanx to Hrdworking WHITE Men creating this nation. YOU, if you are from a western country, Should be HAPPY for everything we have done for you, Most likely, whatever nation you are from, We have helped you with technology, inspiration and having a chance for Freedom.


Show some respect for what we have done and continue to do, no one is Paying us to keep the world safe, We do it because we are the Grestest and no other can.

djfav said...

USA! USA! USA!!!

Whatever, Gabe. Fuck you.

djfav said...

"...but I use it as a insult."

No shit.

Jacqueline said...

"United States of America saved the free world from dictatorship and communism!"



So Russia was defeated by good ol' Captain America was it?
Were you reading comics in your school lessons again, Gabe?



JS;)

djfav said...

Cue "In Soviet Russia..." jokes in 3...2...1...

djfav said...

In Soviet Russia, comic books read you!

Tom Foss said...

United States of America created SPACE ROCKETS AND FLEW TO THE MOON!

After the Russians paved most of the way by putting the first man and satellite in space. And using technology developed largely by Germans.

United States of America saved the free world from dictatorship and communism!

And they did such a wonderful job of it that there are no more dictatorships or Communist regimes anywhere in the world, not even right off the coast of Florida!

United States of America consist of people that consider living in a House, having only one car as poor whiles most of the rest of the world (its people) Dream of having one.

So "opulent wealth" = "great"? Then isn't Dubai greater than America?

United States of America is the light of Freedom for people everywhere and people flock to get here (legally ad well as illegally).

Great. Who's disputing that?

No Nation compared to us in STRENGTH and TECHNOLOGY,

Strength? Depends on what you mean by strength. I'd say that China's could give us a run for our money. Technology, though, is just laughable. Go to any East Asian country, and just take a quick look at their cell phones or their wireless networks, for example. America is not the cutting edge that it used to be.

Nations dream of being like America and alot of them are ANGRY because they will never be and show their jealousy with hatred.

Someone drank deep of the Bushite Kool-Aid.

Show some respect for what we have done and continue to do, no one is Paying us to keep the world safe, We do it because we are the Grestest and no other can.

No one is paying us to keep the world safe, but lots of countries are paying us for various reasons, which is part of why there's a national debt, you boob.

Look, I'm not going to try to cut through your content-free jingo. I'm just going to ask this: who is the better patriot, the person who thinks his country can do no wrong, or the person who sees his country for all its charms and flaws and wants to make it better?

Gabriel said...

Its sad when you see so much hatred in the world, exhibited by alot of people here, I teach Love and Understanding wan want to spread knowledge, for this I get hatred, It is truly sad.


Take the example of promotion of not blending races, this is usually responded with hatred for people not caring about the purity of beauty of Whites. This is something that niggers are behind as well and support, the negro communities do not want mixes.

Further on it gets worse, take a white woman being raped and becomes pregnant by a negro (or even worse, having a relationship with one of them), what you get out of this is a mulatto, a cross between a white and negro. This is a sad afrair that no one can truly promote, is it?

You would imagine a cross between a white and ape would yield a 50/50 result, but this is rarely the case. The intellect of the hybrid is most often inferior, or much much lower then the 50% we would assume because of the white heritage, it seems that the negro/ape genes hold back the intellect quite a deal.

A Hybrid is of course much more intelligent then a pure negro but a farcry from Human functionalities, this is a good reason for whites to point out the disgust and promote to make it illegal for negros to impregnate woman.

Another reason is bestiality. The same people promoting the mullato hybrid are usually promoting homosexuality and pedophelia as well as bestiality. We could debate whatever we should consider negro human or not as they are much closer to ape then man (by Darwins own theory) but it is safe to say that a Hybrid is a violation of human nature and the bestiality commited by a white male or white female if with a man or woman because even more disgusting if it produces offspring.

No doubt this is debated with HATRED from the nay sayers which is quite amusing, We the promoters of love and deency gets called haters whiles the haters hate, Freud would have a field day with you guys. It is worth noting that negros completely agree that a mixture of races should not be done, I do not know why they would promote it as they would, technically, advanced and become more brighter and less ape like, but alas, It is nice to see they understand as well.

Tom Foss said...

This not only broke my irony meter, but I think it may have broken every irony meter I may ever have in my life.

djfav said...

"...I teach Love and Understanding..."

Gabe, I'm running out of irony-meters. Where should I send the bill?

djfav said...

I feel your pain, Tom.

Rick said...

So Gabe:

Just what is your definition of White?

Your continued hiding from this question just makes you look like you are unable to answer it, and given how simple of a question it is....

Anonymous said...

Wasn't there an SNL skit about this, working off of the Oral-B commercials? "Four out of five black men agree - white women are hot."

Bronze Dog said...

Rick:

So Gabe:

Just what is your definition of White?

Your continued hiding from this question just makes you look like you are unable to answer it, and given how simple of a question it is....


It pretty much impossible not to give someone as evasive as him new hiding places like the current spat of jingoism.

And yeah, it is a pretty simple question, central to Gabe's non-explanatory hypothesis. Only about ~25,000 genes in the human genome by some counts, so that shouldn't be a problem to sift through.

I wonder why Gabe is so eager to latch onto subject changes. ;)

Jacqueline said...

Clownboy Gabe laughingly wote:

"Freud would have a field day with you.."

So here is what Freud would have thought of you. Past tense, Gabe, because he died in 1939.

Freud: "So Gabe, tell me about your mutter!"

Gabe: "Mama liked niggers....she loved them....boo hoo..she married one, she was an animal fucker!"

Freud: "Go on, Gabriel..."

Gabe: "When I was born they called me a mulatto, I was beaten at school every day and ran off to my secret den to read comic books rather than go to biology or history, or science lessons!"

Freud: "So basically Gabe, you have what we might call ze self loathing syndrome, vere ze child blames ze mutter und vater for ze racism in ze vorld and also loathes ze race zat ze vater was!"


Gabe: " They called me inferior at school because I spent so much time away from lessons, but I'm superior...I'M WHITE I TELL YOU!!!
WHITE!!! I'M AN INTELLECTUAL!!! I'M SUPERIOR!!!"


Freud: Gabe, you talk like ze halfwit, and you are also a hundred years behind ze times. Psychology and evolutionary biology have moved on beyond your outmoded conceptions. I recommend ze large amounts of respiridone und a proper modern education!"

JS;)

Dunc said...

You sure you've got enough rope there Gabe?

Jimmy Blue said...

Racist tool wrote:

A Response to the Nigger...


Okay, I do not know if he or she is a nigger, I know, and most likely he or she isn´t, but I use it as a insult.


And then:

Its sad when you see so much hatred in the world, exhibited by alot of people here, I teach Love and Understanding wan want to spread knowledge

But sees no contradiction.

Why are we even bothering with this demented lunatic? He isn't racist and ignorant, he is clearly deranged - I suggest that we stop feeding his insanity and let it go. Nothing is getting in because he is quite obviously not all there. For crying out loud, he keeps going on and on and on about how whites are superior but he can't even tell anyone what 'white' actually means!

He is clearly a complete fucking nutter, let him go!

Jacqueline said...

Jimmy blue said:
"Why are we even bothering with this demented lunatic? He isn't racist and ignorant, he is clearly deranged -"


Wrong. He is both racist AND very deluded.



"I suggest that we stop feeding his insanity and let it go. Nothing is getting in because he is quite obviously not all there."


I haven't been feeding him, I've been taking the piss or insulting this nitwit.



"For crying out loud, he keeps going on and on and on about how whites are superior but he can't even tell anyone what 'white' actually means!"


We know that. Gabe is clearly attacking his own projected delusions. He still thinks Freud is alive and that Obama is going to rape him.


"He is clearly a complete fucking nutter, let him go!"

I'm sure Gabe's repeating his deluded drivel and cowardice in the face of critcal questioning is a bit tiresome, but it is Bronze Dog's call as to wether he is shown the door. As long as Gabe posts his excrement some of us will take the piss or question his delusions.

JS:)

Dark Jaguar said...

I've been keeping up on this whole thing and what I find mostnoteworthy is simply that I have had nothing new to add for weeks now. I've said all I can say, and at this point any rewording of what I already said, BD gets to before me.

That said, it's still worth continuing to point it out. It isn't so much that this guy will ever be convinced. Not that it's impossible, but it sure is unlikely. It's more a matter of this being a public "debate". It's worth it if only because there's a slim chance those who are "on the fence" about this whole racism thing won't JUST have him blabbering on about his poor reasoning, they will have a concerted specific set of arguments to show that in spite of him calling it "reality", that there's no reason to assume that it actually IS reality.

Tom Foss said...

Dunc: You sure you've got enough rope there Gabe?

Dunc, that's a silly question. Clearly Gabe has years of experience determining appropriate lengths of rope. This is like asking him if he knows how to get soot stains out of white sheets.

Bronze Dog said...

I'm usually one to keep whacking down the local trolls until they're the ones to give up.

Speaking of psychology, Gabe's starting to qualify for one thing: He's been doing essentially the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Dark Jaguar said...

Well in his defense, so have we, since he's been making the same arguments over and over, we've been more or less forced to used the same counter-arguments (which he never addresses) over and over. I suppose the difference is we DON'T expect a different result.

Bronze Dog said...

True, but I do try some alternative angles of attack by bringing out his fallacies with different forms of ridicule.

Of course, just to remind Gabe: How exactly does your racial hypothesis explain the differences in prosperity? What genes are responsible for what?

MWchase said...

I thought he was going to hold himself to the same standards that Francis Crick did: "The genes will probably be discovered, some day."

This reminds me of the Talk:Eye_color flamewar at Wikipedia (which I was looking at for the lulz). One guy demanded a citation for the removal of the section on violet eyes.

Take a moment to think about how such a thing would look in Wikipedia-formatting. It would be a blank line followed by [citation needed]. That, or a footnote.

Both there, and here, we've got people whose standard of evidence for their pet assertion is "I'm sure it's true!"

(Interestingly, one attempt to 'explain' purple eyes posits something called "Alexandria's Genesis" which, despite doubling or tripling life expectancy, granting various superhuman traits, and not impeding fertility in any obvious way, somehow remained vanishingly rare. Even though Europe should have been utterly overrun with purple-eyed people after the Black Death, if that were true.) <- This is all read urban legend. Google, yo.

Anyway, if 'white' people are superior, surely there are predictions that we can make from that... For example, we would predict that numeral systems developed by 'white' people are superior to those developed by 'non-whites'. There are probably M reasons that that's false, but I'll just leave you with this I.

djfav said...

Unfortunately, Gabe is not alone in his stance against interracial marriage.

"I'm not a racist. I just don't believe in mixing the races that way," Bardwell told the Associated Press on Thursday. "I have piles and piles of black friends. They come to my home, I marry them, they use my bathroom. I treat them just like everyone else."

You see, he's not a racist, except when he is.

"There is a problem with both groups accepting a child from such a marriage," Bardwell said. "I think those children suffer and I won't help put them through it."

Yeah, who knows? One day they might grow up to be the fucking President of the United States.

"I try to treat everyone equally," he said.

Irony-meters the world over go up in flames.

Take the bait, Gabe.

Jimmy Blue said...

Jacqueline

Wrong. He is both racist AND very deluded.

Don’t get me wrong, he is clearly churning out plenty of racist, ignorant, deluded nonsense and will continue to do so ad infinitum it seems. I am just no longer sure it is because he is a fully paid up KKK member with a subscription to ‘Lynchings Weekly’ and a copy of Mein Kampf sitting on the coffee table.

The level of cognitive dissonance required to write the hate filled gibberish that Gabriel writes whilst also claiming to be the one preaching love certainly suggests mental instability, or just a truly spectacularly awful joke. It just seems to me that his continued unwavering devotion to the easily disproven, the astonishingly ignorant and the blatantly contradictory ideas he spews is indicative of the kind of mental collapse associated with sitting around in your dead grannies nightgown and hosting tea parties for the pickled heads of long dead pets.

I haven't been feeding him, I've been taking the piss or insulting this nitwit.

Oh I know, but talk about low hanging fruit! I was just referring to the fact that Gabriel seems to actually think he can persuade other people with his madness as long as they are arguing with him.

but it is Bronze Dog's call as to wether he is shown the door.

Oh no question, and I doubt if a troll like Gabriel showed up on my blog I would ever let him have the last word but this nutter has been around for over a month and advanced exactly nowhere. Even the most pathetic, childish and uneducated troll would have tried to define ‘white’ by now, the fact that Gabriel can’t or won’t surely suggests some kind of chronic mental incapacity?

Even a troll, when shown evidence that something they claimed is wrong, will simply drop the claim and pretend they never made it and move on, but Gabriel keeps repeating the same things over and over like a life saving mantra. Take the attempts at softening his tone to sound more reasonable as well – maybe the times he remembers to take his meds?

Repetitive and illogical behaviour taken to the extreme, belief in his own absolute infallibility, pathological lying, delusions of superiority and an astronomically high level of cognitive dissonance. On second thoughts perhaps I should modify my stance, he’s either insane or a Republican.

And I understand the argument that we can use Gabriel to show other people why the Gabriel’s of the world are wrong, I’ve used it myself at other times – but there is also the danger that the more we repeat ourselves the more the person edging towards racism will think “Well they have no new arguments like he said, they are just saying the same things over and over so maybe he has a point.” – They aren’t thinking about whether Gabriel is just a broken record, but whether those answering him are. We all know that is how an uncritical mind often works.

Just saying, is all. Troll roast away.

Jacqueline said...

Jimmy Blue wrote:

"And I understand the argument that we can use Gabriel to show other people why the Gabriel’s of the world are wrong, I’ve used it myself at other times – but there is also the danger that the more we repeat ourselves..."

Jimmy, even if we exclude Gabriel's deluded crap from this debate, surely you must praise some of the extremely good replies to his diatribes. I've seen measured, reasoned responses to Gabe's drivel that show how the minds of skeptical rational folk work. Now these were worth reading.

".. the more the person edging towards racism will think “Well they have no new arguments like he said, they are just saying the same things over and over so maybe he has a point.”

Clearly overly irrational people will dismiss the rational arguments posted on this blog, and prefer Gabe's delusions of superiority. However if a person has some morsel of rationality he/she may be swayed by the responses put forward by the skeptics on this site.

" – They aren’t thinking about whether Gabriel is just a broken record, but whether those answering him are. We all know that is how an uncritical mind often works."


Then perhaps they aren't thinking.
Gabe is talking the same old shit over and over without answering pertinent questions put to him. Anyone can see that. Gabe also tries to hide behind off subject waffle. But the best replies to Gabe's shit are coherent and rational and keep the argument on track, not allowing Gabe to digress, and try to save himself from the humiliation of not having anything to back his arguments up.

"Just saying, is all. Troll roast away."

I know that its sometimes tiresome reading Gabe's semi literate delusions, but it should show any reasonable person how fucked Gabe's entire position is.



JS:)

Gabriel said...

Curious question, has anyone here actually read Mein Kampf?

It is not a simple Donald Duck cartoon and it shows the limitation of your intellect when commenting that I would 'have Mein Kampf next to me' like its just a simple read. It is clear most if not all never read it, and certainly not in its original German.

It reminds me of that American History X movie, the white guy gives his teacher a REVIEW of Mein Kampf and his teacher simple throws it out?? WHAT? A decent teacher would be impressed by a proper assessment and written review of Mein Kampf, it is not a easy book to read or comprehend, you need to think. Dawkins latest book, in comparison is a walk in the park compared to it as a 'easy' or 'hard' read. Remember that.

But probably you won't, right?

Gabriel said...

The love of the world and the white race
has is seen with most senses, and yet
ignored and skewed by the haters of
people that deny the reality of the
superiority of the white race.

The slant, usually, used by the haters
is to project their own views, in this
case, Hate, on the people that acknowledge
the factual history of the White man
(and woman for does who do not like the
use of the english masculine use of
words). They claim that we hate
is needed to be put in the extreme irony
of the claim. We do not, as the deniers
do, run around killing and banging the
niggers on the head because they are
inferior (this is, it seems, what the
deniers want to do as projected by
them), no, we just want to spread the
truth (put a TM there).

Now, alot of delusion is needed to
deny this, especially by the rather
pathetic members and followers of Bronze
Dog's herd. One suitable thing used
is the 'denying' tacttic, which is
a way of claiming that I, the 'enemy'
here (everyone else blindly agrees with
Bronze Dog) is not providing any
evidence and 'deny' the real world,
as seen by them. They simple ignore
all the evidence provided or simple
reject it in a similar manner of the
Creationist, which they claim is 'wrong'
in a similar way.


Human Evolution and What we Become!

If we skip Australopiths and such, as
most of you clearly do not know much
about Evolution and Bronze Dog has not
been very detailed when speaking to
you (Sorry Bronze, I need to refer to
your followers as blind sheep following
your view and opinion, and therefore
be careful with what I say as I realize
they have limited knowledge of these
facts), We have Earlier Homo's such as
Habilis, Rudolfensis, Erectus and so
on, as the vast amount I will ignore
most of it.

If we go from Homo Erectus, which would
be primate negros of today but more
ape like. They are thought to have spread
in Africa and to Asia around 1.5 million
years ago. I think the earliest fossil
found of Homo Erectus was only 50 thousand
years ago, which shows they were very
successful. Once again, does apes lived
only 50 thousand years ago.

Homo Heidelbergensis is believed to have
spread through Europe. That is, Homo
Erectus was spreading in Africa and Asia
someting around 1.5 to less then 2 million
years ago, and Homo heidelbergensis spread
through Europe
something around 800k
years ago. Mind you, the ages are not very
static as it is alot of debates so lets
just accept a 'something around' date.

Gabriel said...

It is most likely that the Wite Race came
from this relative Modern Human, and
this makes us rather different from the
Negro/Ape race, and would explain our
high intellect and advancements (rockets,
computers, advanced societies etc).

Whiles Heidelbergensis continued to Evolve
becoming what we know today as the White
Man, it seems that the Erectus or early
Negriod almost stopped in evolution, it
was content.


! NOTICE !
First, you need to understand that Evolution
does not have a path and does not make you
become 'better', this is needed to understand
how Evolution works. The White man just happen
to have become the advanced race you see
today.


Most Negriods in Africa is still very similar
to their early brothers, they are very ignorant
and basic knowledge of tools and such is
seen as magic rather then technology. And
this explains the reason why spics are as
well, they are simple pre-human, and not fully
evolved to what we, The White Race, finally
became. They do not need to evolve more if
they survive, as stated, Evolution has no
path, only survival is relevant, not intelligence
and understanding. They took another path.


Sadly, because of 'politically correct' politics
in present day America and rest of the world, we
can not really study this or have any opinion of
it. You need to hold that everyone is equal and
therefore no research can be done, what to find?
It is already decided, no research needed.

When people like me, Who love knowledge and the
world is trying to spread knowledge, we are met
with hatred and defense, it has been grained, even
in Aryans, that they are equal to a negriod ape
and nothing special. History is skewed and need
to be modified as it shows the White Man creating
everything that is good, Medication, Education,
Stable Societies, Rockets, Computers, Internet,
and Hell, because you are a roleplayer, Lord Of
The Ring, Yay You!....

The Truth is nothing to be afraid of. Dont fear
it.


*Note
It is worth noting that there is alot of research
in where and how we evolved and alot of even the
most popular are disputed by many, there is what
we would call 'controversy', but not in the same
sense our Creationist friends use it, but rather
limited knowledge of all the apes and humans.

Neanderthals for example was seen as having more
advanced tools then pre-human did, as well as what
seem to be religious societies and rituals. But
this is also debated. A possible scenario could be
that what became the white Man made the Neanderthals
die out and the negriods of today is the ancestors
of Neanderthals, maybe the remaining ones in Africa
and various apes there became one, with gene flow
and all, and this would explain their limited
intellect and understanding. Once again, it is all
under research and debate, but most likely no
real answer will be given as 'PC' does not really
allow it.

djfav said...

Fuck you, Gabe.

djfav said...

"The love of the world and the white race has is seen with most senses, and yet ignored and skewed by the haters of people that deny the reality of the superiority of the white race."

Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

djfav said...

"Homo Heidelbergensis is believed to have spread through Europe. That is, Homo Erectus was spreading in Africa and Asia someting around 1.5 to less then 2 million years ago, and Homo heidelbergensis spread through Europe something around 800k years ago...

It is most likely that the Wite Race came from this relative Modern Human, and this makes us rather different from the Negro/Ape race, and would explain our high intellect and advancements (rockets, computers, advanced societies etc).


*points and laughs*

djfav said...

"Once again, it is all under research and debate, but most likely no real answer will be given as 'PC' does not really allow it."

Hence you won't be providing any evidence for the above claim.

djfav said...

"Whiles Heidelbergensis continued to Evolve becoming what we know today as the White Man, it seems that the Erectus or early Negriod almost stopped in evolution, it was content."

Oh, I see. They're lazy so they just didn't want to evolve anymore.

*points and laughs again*

Bronze Dog said...

If the differences are as big as Gabe's new hypothesis seems to imply, wouldn't the supposed difference in brains be that much easier to find and describe?

Dark Jaguar said...

How about that, something new from the guy. Now I have a whole new set of misconceptions to destroy.

Evolution is not something a group "decides" to do or "wants" to do.

Evolutionary "success" has nothing at all to do with personal success in business or education or work, evolutionary success is ONLY a measure of how well a bit of DNA is at replicating itself.

Saying something is "more evolved" is a meaningless statement. Either something is capable of continuing to exist or it isn't. The only possible meaning "more evolved" can have is that you could call species that are not extinct "more capable of survival", but even then a lot of that is determined by simple circumstance.

If a brain is no longer necessary to survive in any particular population, the tendancy will be to reduce brain mass to provide more resources for other things. An obvious example are those species of aenemonies that start life out swimming around, and thus needing a brain, but eventually latch onto a rock for the rest of their life, and at this point they go through a development into something far more plant-like, to the extent of absorbing their brain. From the perspective of whatever conciousness their brain provides, that latching point is their "death", leaving a living corpse. This is not "degeneration", as the latched version of the critter has a number of amazing adaptations that do it's job very well.

You seem to suggest now that the populations, when one had seperated from the original african group and travelled north, went through a massive divergence. Well, this is actually not really any different than what you originally were implying without realizing it. There is no reason to suspect that brain mass or brain power was in any way noticably altered in this split population. In fact that split happened extremely recently, barely a blip in the geological time frame. Human kind and their brains go back MUCH further than this population split. There simply was not enough time for the changes you are proposing to have occured. Further, WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES!

This is the key point you keep forgetting. You are offering numerous explanations for why you think your race is better than everyone else's, but you can't put the cart before the horse like that. You have to first establish THAT your race is superior. You haven't done that.

Bronze Dog said...

DJ: This is the key point you keep forgetting. You are offering numerous explanations for why you think your race is better than everyone else's, but you can't put the cart before the horse like that. You have to first establish THAT your race is superior. You haven't done that.

And before Gabe performs the standard correlation implies causation fallacy, DJ's asking for an identifiable trait that would make whites superior. You know, that missing foundation for your theory that we've been poking you for all this time?

MWchase said...

But obviously, 'white' people produced everything good except for the stuff that other people got to first. Such as Hindu-Arabic numerals*, algebra, iron smelting, gunpowder, modern micro-technology... (By no means comprehensive. This is just what I could think of offhand.)

If you believe in a historical Jesus consistent with the Bible, he was black.

*Unless you hold with the historical classification of Indians as dark-skinned Caucasians.

Jacqueline said...

Gabe waffled:

"Curious question, has anyone here actually read Mein Kampf? ...."
'have Mein Kampf next to me' like its just a simple read. It is clear most if not all never read it, and certainly not in its original German.



Sprechen sie deutsch, schiessekopf?
No I thought not. Its a read for the simple minded, thats for sure.


JS:)

Jacqueline said...

Gabe mindfarted:

"(everyone else blindly agrees with
Bronze Dog)"

Dude, he isn't some fascist leader that we all have to obey. I ascribe your whiney words against Bronze Dog as jealousy because you long to be part of some bigger organization, or brotherhood. You're a sad little lonely fool, Gabe.


"...is not providing any
evidence and 'deny' the real world,
as seen by them. They simple ignore
all the evidence provided or simple
reject it in a similar manner of the
Creationist, which they claim is 'wrong'
in a similar way."


Both you and cretinists have the same problem. Anecdotes aren't scientific evidence.
If several murders occur when the sky is blue, is it safe to say that a blue sky causes homicidal behaviour? Or do you realize that correlation does NOT imply causation.
What we need is scientific evidence for your assertion that you are superior to all black people. Or that you're some kind of intellectual. Because its painfully obvious that you aren't.
Do you have no shame Gabe? Why haven't you slunk off in total humiliation at the ignorant racist fantasies you stupidly cling to, like a child with a teddy bear?


JS:)

Jacqueline said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rick said...

So Gabe, still avoiding the basic question of: "What do you mean when you say white?"


Let's add another question: Where have H. erectus been found that are outside the range of H. heidelbergensis?[1] To help you out, I will make sure that you know that only H. sapiens have been found in Australia and The Americas.


[1] Spelling note: In a species name, you capitalize only the genus. You also need to either italicize, (preferred), or underline the entire name.

Jacqueline said...

Gabe arrogantly waffled:

"It is worth noting that there is alot of research
in where and how we evolved and alot of even the
most popular are disputed by many, there is what
we would call 'controversy', but not in the same
sense our Creationist friends use it, but rather
limited knowledge of all the apes and humans."

Wow! Suddenly Gabe thinks he is Mr Superscientific guy! Anyway, I thought you hated the scientific method, and that your anecdotes trumped all other evidence?

"Neanderthals for example was seen as having more
advanced tools then pre-human did"

No shit, really Gabe?


"A possible scenario could be
that what became the white Man made the Neanderthals
die out and the negriods of today is the ancestors
of Neanderthals, maybe the remaining ones in Africa
and various apes there became one, with gene flow..."



Strange, DNA evidence doesn't support your pet theory.
"..and this would explain their limited
intellect and understanding."

Since your theory lacks any evidence at all, and DNA evidence contradicts your theory, I'd say you're talkin' shit.


"Once again, it is all
under research and debate..."

Your comicbook ideas of evolution show that you don't regularly follow either research or debate, of the scientific kind. Maybe you follow the "research" and "debate" of your cretinist friends?


"..but most likely no
real answer will be given as 'PC' does not really
allow it."

No answer will be given that you will accept, as science doesn't cater to the comicbook inspired ignorant fantasies of a sad little Nazi.

JS:)

Dark Jaguar said...

Neanderthals and humans split from a common ancestor far longer ago than humanity's split into europe. Again, the massive journey of humans across the globe is barely a blip on the geological scale, in evolutionary terms barely anything had time to happen. The brain is one of the most complicated things we've got. Developing entire new features in it takes more time than a mere genetic change in how much melanin one tribe's skin produces.

More on neanderthals, they didn't have "more advanced" tools. They did have tools, and it is very noteworthy how intelligent they were. However, their brain level was somewhat limited and one notable thing is how much their technology stayed the same until humans showed up. It would seem neanderthals were copying human artwork possibly without "getting" it. Yeah, you see THIS is actually the scenario you have been trying to believe exists in-species with us humans. It's notable there's still controversy about whether or not neanderthals just copied some of human's stuff or they actually started a cultural revolution. At any rate, they appeared to lack the ability humans did of creating larger networks and stuck to very small tribes, which may have been the major contributer to their extinction when humans arrived on the scene.

Note that this in no way suggests that those humans who had gone to europe to interact with neanderthals somehow got supercharged brains. I've not read anyone suggesting that nor any aspect of what is known about this that would even hint at that. Why would they? What about the interaction, for a very brief period, with neanderthals would accomplish that? After all it's not like meeting humans suddenly supercharged the neanderthals.

It is also worth noting that if neanderthals still existed today, and as a matter of fact WERE exactly as it seems, quite intelligent but still unable to comprehend certain things humans can, I still would have no issue at all with giving them full rights and the chance to take whatever path they want in life, even if it would be tougher for them. Nor would I be "sickened" with them "intermingling" with people. The resulting children of that, if such a breeding were even genetically possible, would very likely be sterile, but still would demand the same respect any intelligent being would. Even in a world where one species of intelligent hominid clearly WAS actually intellectually superior to another, I still would support equal rights and be against "seperating" them and telling them "you inferior idiots should know your place and stop trying to better yourselves in any way".

Gabriel said...

I wonder how many times Dawkins said "Nigger" in the Greatest Show on Earth, read the book, find out.

Gabriel said...

You could technically say they do exist, Dark Jaguar.

It is funny, ironic even, how you seem to miss the nowledge you clearly have, you confirmed my facts as well and my point, but you seem to, pretend you do not, maybe you sohuld read what you wrote again.


If neandertals existed today, there would be very little difference between them and the nigger of Africa, they, the niggers, lack the basic knowledge of understanding certain things, this I have shown already, America, the greatest nation on the planet, we given them a chance, they create backwards violent societies, how much more evidence do you want, or are you like a Creationist, always something new?

Bronze Dog said...

So... African nations have quality educational systems, an infrastructure that allows almost everyone to eat, social stability that comes with things like strong national identity, and they still fail?

Oh, wait. They haven't had those things at all, so didn't have a chance to demonstrate genetic equality under better controls. Of course, in America, as they steadily gain more access to those very things, they get closer to being equal in output, suggesting there is no genetic effect: If an effect keeps shrinking under tighter controls, there's a strong chance it doesn't exist.

Of course, Gabriel keeps his hypothesis about the specific cause intentionally vague, since he can't come up with anything other than a model of ancestry that relies on a denial of the existing data and fundamental aspects of evolution.

Dark Jaguar said...

What exactly are you attempting to say now? Are you trying to say that neanderthals BECAME africans? If so you should realize that goes completely against everything the fossil record shows. The history we currently have shows neanderthals are the result of a split long LONG before humans arrived on the scene and that their range was entirely in europe. They never immigrated to africa to "become" africans. Further, all our best evidence shows that slight variations like your "europeans" are simply the result of a far more recent split. Indeed africans in general don't resemble neanderthals any more than europeans. This is easily explained by the position that we are the SAME SPECIES.

Further, in what way has anything I stated been some sort of proof of your idea? That's not at all clear. What are you interpretting as "evidence" of your idea? Please state so unambigiously. I say this because you suck at socratic method.

MWchase said...

If the range of neanderthals was pretty much all in Europe... Wouldn't they have had to face the same issues about rickets that the ancestors of white people faced? So, what I'm saying is, the neanderthals were probably white, because that's just how it goes with the climate up north.

Dark Jaguar said...

That's certainly one. Personally I don't think I've ever seen or read anything that could say with a good level of certainty whether neanderthals were covered in hair or more like humans though. I'd certainly like to read any sources anyone else could provide though. If the idea I've read recently that humans lost their hair as a method of replacing panting with perspiration so they could use the "endurance hunt" method of just slowly chasing an animal to exaustion though, then it's possible they were as relatively hairless as we.

Tom Foss said...

You would imagine a cross between a white and ape would yield a 50/50 result, but this is rarely the case. The intellect of the hybrid is most often inferior, or much much lower then the 50% we would assume because of the white heritage, it seems that the negro/ape genes hold back the intellect quite a deal.

A Hybrid is of course much more intelligent then a pure negro but a farcry from Human functionalities, this is a good reason for whites to point out the disgust and promote to make it illegal for negros to impregnate woman.


I turned this over in my head for a few days, and I think the implications are interesting:

1. According to Gabe's model here, Barack Obama must be significantly less intelligent than George W. Bush.

2. Apparently, there is one (or very few) gene which codes for intelligence (I'll leave which protein causes intelligence up to someone else to figure out). Furthermore, there is one (or very few) gene for all the characteristics we use to distinguish race--skin tone, hair texture, structure of facial features, etc. These genes are apparently linked, so they must occur on the same chromosome, and they must be close together. Moreover, they must be extremely resistant to crossing over and mutations, in order for Gabe's model to make any sense at all. Why Gabe has not yet won a Nobel Prize for this stunning contribution to our understanding of the human genome is well beyond me.

3. Gabe thinks that black people are a separate species. Furthermore, he seems to think that humans and "apes" are separate categories.

4. As per #2, Gabe has no idea what "Darwin's own theory" is, even though he references it in the next paragraph.

Whiles Heidelbergensis continued to Evolve
becoming what we know today as the White
Man, it seems that the Erectus or early
Negriod almost stopped in evolution, it
was content.


I find it funny that you can claim we don't understand evolution (or that we learned it from Bronze Dog), and then throw out something as stupid as this. Both erectus and heidelbergensis are long extinct branches of the hominid line. If Africans were actually examples of erectus, I think you'd find we'd have an awfully more difficult time interbreeding. We'd also have some genetic data to support that contention.

Moreover, you don't seem to understand how speciation occurs, or how the genetic evidence clearly demonstrates that we all--that is, all Homo sapiens, Africans included--came out of a particular region of Africa, branching off from other hominids about 250,000 years ago and migrating 150,000-200,000 years later.

Tom Foss said...

First, you need to understand that Evolution
does not have a path and does not make you
become 'better', this is needed to understand
how Evolution works. The White man just happen
to have become the advanced race you see
today.


This is hilarious. "You need to understand that evolution does not make you better, but white people are better because of evolution."

You know, Gabe, you were almost right. Evolution doesn't make things "better" or "superior," it makes things more suited to their environments. As far as evolution is concerned, that is the only way to judge superiority. You clearly have different criteria, and yet you have failed to share them with us. All along you've been talking about "superiority," and you have yet to explain what measurements you're using to make that judgment.

You need to hold that everyone is equal and
therefore no research can be done, what to find?
It is already decided, no research needed.


If the research had ever found that any of the arbitrarily-delineated races were a different species, no amount of political correctness could silence it. Your conspiracy theory is showing, Gabe. You don't seem to understand that we have done research on people of various races, and it doesn't support your claims.

When people like me, Who love knowledge and the
world is trying to spread knowledge, we are met
with hatred and defense


You can't spread knowledge that you don't have. What you're spreading is not knowledge, it's baseless prejudice. You have no evidence beyond your own flawed perceptions, you have no studies, only conspiracy theories, and you have no understanding of the science that you think supports your claims. Your claims not only have no basis in science, they have no plausible scientific mechanism.

White Man creating
everything that is good, Medication, Education,
Stable Societies, Rockets, Computers, Internet,
and Hell, because you are a roleplayer, Lord Of
The Ring, Yay You!....


Stable societies? We had those long before there were white men; hell, we had those before modern humans. Medication? Every human society has stumbled toward some kinds of medication, and every society has mixed in healthy doses of magic and pseudomedicine, whites included (and perhaps especially). Rockets? Are you fricking serious? Rockets were invented by the Chinese, you moron. Don't talk about "skewed history" when you're the one who's askew.

this I have shown already

"Shown" = "proclaimed with certainty but no actual evidence, i.e., nothing to 'show'"

So, when are you going to answer Rick's question, Gabe? And when are you going to explain what your criteria are for determining "superiority"? And when are you going to demonstrate your Nobel-winning genome exploration? I'm waiting on tenterhooks!

Tom Foss said...

4. As per #2,

Should read "As per #3."

Dark Jaguar said...

I don't think you get the irony over complaining about you, as a racist, being discriminated against by society when that's exactly what you are proposing we do to entire groups of people for baseless reasons.

Jacqueline said...

Gabe waffled:
"I wonder how many times Dawkins said "Nigger" in the Greatest Show on Earth, read the book, find out."


How about you shut the fuck up Gabe, and sit down and really read Dawkins book without your prejudices getting in the way. Then you might LEARN SOMETHING.
Because right now Gabe, you are demonstrating that you are the same ignoramus that you were when you uttered racist shit on the Pharyngula site.

JS;)

Jimmy Blue said...

Jacqueline:

You're right - I still think he's insane though.

Racist Tool:

Why won't/can't you define what you mean by "white"?

And yes, I have read Mein Kampf, for some very specific historical research and for my own research. Not all of it I hasten to add but there is only so much "The Bolsheviks and/or Jews did it. And they suck. And Aryans rule. And I, Adolf Hitler, am awesome." that you really need to see to understand that book and its worth. Hell, Hitler even claims he is doing God's work!

I'm sure you've told yourself that there are many layers to that book, but it only appears that way because you are a racist tool.

Dark Jaguar said...

Gabe currently your belief is that it's racial inferiority that explains why any nation is inferior to any other. Apparently you are under the belief that there is NOTHING else that can possibly explain why, say, many African nations are doing more poorly than many European ones. History and the resources available offer two explanations. It's basically a series of unfortunate, or fortunate in some cases, events.

However, there are ways to put this to the test historically. BD pointed out the obvious, when african people are raised in an environment full of opportunity, they flurish as well as any white person and can excell. The better the upbringing, the better off they do. One can't simply "will" themselves to success. It's a rare person who can "pick themselves up by their own bootstraps" as the expression goes, and even then if you examine the situations you find that those cases only can occur due to happy fortunes in that one person's life.

However, this test has been done over and over again throughout American history through various "waves" of immigration. Study the history of jewish people immigrating, and irish, and italian, and so on. Each of these big "waves" starts off very poorly. They have next to nothing arriving in America, and no "network" of well to do people to get aid from. They have to form a tight knit community almost immediatly to support each other as they struggle to survive. Compounding this for those old cases are xenophobic and racist propaganda against them as an entire group. There were signs saying "no irish" on stores and monstrous images and stereotypes going around. The underground crime some of them put together just made things worse, it was the same horrid cestpools of scum and villany, but of course it wasn't the ENTIRE population, many simply had no way to escape. You can say "just go" but that's not as easy as you think. "Just going" sometimes means losing the only livelihood you currently have, and all your family and friends. However, as time went on for these various groups, eventually more opportunities arose. Some were able to actually become pretty succesful, and today those groups have spread out and are not even considered seperate any more, simply part of the tapestry of "Americans". There are still ghettos and such all across America, but the history of it all does not support in any way that race is responsible. Given the proper resources, any of them can florish. With the lack of it, you get crime and desperation.

Study up on the history of immigration waves and you'll find this to be the only real pattern.

Rick said...

Gabe, I'm going to keep asking until you either answer or slink off into the darkness:

What do you mean when you say white?

Dunc said...

It is most likely that the Wite Race came from this relative Modern Human, and this makes us rather different from the
Negro/Ape race, and would explain our high intellect and advancements (rockets, computers, advanced societies etc).

Whiles Heidelbergensis continued to Evolve becoming what we know today as the White Man, it seems that the Erectus or early Negriod almost stopped in evolution, it
was content.


Ha ha! You fucking moron. You have just proven, beyond any possible doubt, that you don't have the first fucking clue what you're talking about.

If neandertals existed today, there would be very little difference between them and the nigger of Africa

Hilariously wrong. We've studied both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA from H. neanderthalis, and it's a different species. All humans alive today are H. sapiens sapiens. We've looked quite hard for a genetic basis for "race" (in the classical sense), and the surprising answer is: there isn't any. Genetically, Africans are more similar to Europeans than they are to the "native" inhabitants of any other continent. [Genes, peoples, and languages, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences vol.94]

MWchase said...

Another thought that came up, this time in relation to the idea of 'dogs'.

Dogs pant, instead of sweating. This is why successful polar expeditions used dogs instead of, say, horses. Horses, like humans, sweat, which means that overexerting themselves in the frozen north leads to their sweat freezing instead of evaporating, which is all kinds of bad for the horse, and anybody relying on it.

So, perspiration is maladaptive in the wintertime. Given the dramatic changes in lifestyle that other animals go through to deal with winter, you'd think that any 'highly evolved' 'white' person would be born with a better way to deal with winter than "Don't run too much, or carry too much, or you might die."

In other words, there's been some adaptation, but over such a short time-scale that really, little has changed.

Bronze Dog said...

I'm still doing some facepalming about how Gabe thinks heredity is continuous instead of discrete.

Gabe, even if these hypothetical hybrids you're talking about are 50/50 (and that's a big if, depending on factors like dominant or recessive genes), you do realize that would only apply for the first generation. If the "smart genes" or whatever still give a survival advantage, those with the most will reproduce more, increasing the frequency of those "smart genes."

If it were as you describe, evolution wouldn't be able to work: Any new, useful trait would get diluted before it could do anything. Genes are discrete entities: You either have a copy or you don't. The more kids you have, the more likely they are to have a copy of a particular gene.

Dark Jaguar said...

Ah yes, the classic "my pure awesome blood is being diluted by those outsiders with their evil satan blood" thing. DNA is not like a fluid. It is digital. You can take a gene, analyze it, copy it, print it on paper, read it, build it, and stick it in back into that strand of DNA sequence and it will behave exactly the same as it did before. In fact without some discrete discontinous digital means of storing a recipe like that, evolution can't occur.

DNA is not like the surface of a record, it's like the surface of a CD.

Jacqueline said...
This comment has been removed by the author.