Friday, July 21, 2006

Please Clicky!

Neurodiversity isn't one of my regular blogs, but it probably should be. Here's a series that tells you something about the "heroes" of the mercury brigade.

Significant Misrepresentations: Mark Geier, David Geier & the Evolution of the Lupron Protocol:

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six
Part Seven

I find it entertaining that much of what the Geiers have been doing matches exactly what quacks like to say teh bIg pHARMa CoNsPiRaCy is up to.

19 comments:

Kathleen Seidel said...

Bronze Dog, thanks for linking to me. You're right -- there does seem to be a whole lotta projection goin' on. I have to laugh when I hear the Geiers go on about the supposedly mercenary motivations of anyone who interprets scientific evidence differently than they do. Do you really think either of them would have any "expert opinions" about anything having to do wth autism if it weren't for those expert witness fees?

Fore Sam said...

I think Kathleen is missing the mercenary motivations of Pharma who stands to lose over a trillion dollars if mercury damaged children gain their day in court. Does anyone think a trillion dollars is good reason to buy politicians and knock the scientists who help cure children? Cured children make for great evidence in court.
I question Kathleen's motivation. Is she more concerned with preventing children from being cured or preventing Pharma from being sued?

Bronze Dog said...

Perhaps you'd like to present evidence that these children are "mercury damaged."

Perhaps you'd like to correct your vocabulary mistake and/or dishonesty and say "ethyl mercury damaged."

Perhaps you'd like to show us how they're buying politicians.

Perhaps you'd like to point out the logical weaknesses of their efforts to "knock" the scientists who *allegedly* cure children.

Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate these cures in a manner that distinguishes "cured" children from those who improved naturally.

Perhaps you'd like to not pull the old shill card in an effort to distract readers from the realities by making them focus on your illuminati fantasies.

More likely, you're going to continue on your efforts to emulate every other type of woo out there, Mr. Cookie-cutter.

Bronze Dog said...

Just thought of something that pretty much covers what you're doing, Fore Sam:

"My evidence for the defendant's guilt is that it's in his best interest to produce evidence that demonstrates his innocence. Therefore, we cannot trust that evidence. Additionally, I have some shaky testimony that is entirely consistent with both the prosecution's and defense's stories. We should dismiss the latter half of that for reasons I'll never-ever-ever-ever-ever go into."

Fore Sam said...

I've already been through the long arguments and given you the proof that you keep refusing to accept. The question now goes to your motivation for denial of the truth. Why do you and Kathleen want children to suffer?

Bronze Dog said...

I've already been through the long arguments and given you the proof that you keep refusing to accept.

That's what they've said about homeopathy, magic titanium pendants, psychic powers, alien space craft, 9/11 conspiracies, yadda, yadda, yadda: They present some flimsy evidence that doesn't prove anything and expect me to be convinced.

The problem is that you've never given me a good reason to lower my standards to your level.

You're also asking me to accept the possibility of a conspiracy of millions, just like all those others.

You're also asking me to reject everything I learned in chemistry class. Telling me that chelation can repair mercury damage is like telling me that chilling ashes will turn them back into wood.

The question now goes to your motivation for denial of the truth. Why do you and Kathleen want children to suffer?

And Fore Sam bravely ran away, away, just like the 9/11 nuts did when they called me a shill for Bush, for agreeing with him that the sky is blue.

You're an expert at that, aren't you? Why don't you try telling me a good reason to accept your evidence when it's on the exact same level as every altie "treatment" in existence?

If you stopped to explain why you want me to lower my standards, you might actually stand a chance at convincing me. The follow-up problem is that you'd have to explain why I should accept your level of evidence but not accept homeopathy, chiropractic, and all those extra-silly things.

But you won't do that. You'll just come back and drop more innuendo, and try and tell me that your magic anecdote is more special than other anecdotes, even diametrically opposed ones. You aren't interested in debate: You're only interested in portraying anyone who opposes you in the worst light possible, since you can't do anything else to win an argument.

Ranson said...

I hope you don't hurt yourself trying to bash your way through the brick wall that is Fore Sam, BD. I know you have sort of a compulsion, but don't let lost causes work you up. Fight the stupidity, not the stupid.

I've been fortunate enough that no one in my meatspace circle has been crazy enough to buy in to anti-vaxxing. Hell, I was probably the worst when I expressed some concern over the long-term efficacy of the chicken pox vaccine. But the ethyl/methyl mercury thing is just . . . silly and tragic. People without the slightest understanding of chemistry and biology latching onto an excuse for their bad fortune because some money-grubbing quack reassures them that it really is someone else's fault. I feel sympathy for that kind of desperation. I feel none for someone paranoid enough to believe in and promote a conspiracy of millions that has actively wounded children (instead of, you know, better diagnostic tools simply catching more of what was already there combining with anecdotes of bad reactions followed by diagnoses).

But, then again, I'm technically a shill. I work for small pharma. Enjoy that acne gel! It's conspiracilicious!

Bronze Dog said...

Don't worry. I intend to have fun with Fore Sam. After all, I've got a bunch of questions and objectsions he seemingly can't even comprehend, much less answer. He's just another Dr. MAS to me. Except he does a decent job of faking comprehension of English.

Here's another for you, Fore Sam: Please explain to me the logistics of the big conspiracy. It's got to be even harder than planting explosives in the WTC without anyone noticing.

Ranson said...

I've got it! They hide the mercury in the 4" rebar, and it comes out in free-fall! It's all so clear now! It's the same conspiracy!

Reptoids!

Bronze Dog said...

Yeah. And every night, the state alchemists sneak into our homes and draw transmutation circles under our kids' beds so that the ethyl mercury will be transformed into mercuric chloride. Then they boil them in small amounts hot benzene to get the testosterone to bind the stuff into sheets.

Fore Sam said...

BD;
When you took high school chemistry, Dr Deth had not yet discovered exactly how mercury impairs methylation to cause autism. But, that's OK, even Medical Schools aren't teaching students that chelation cures autism. They don't teach that because curing autism would make all the doctors who screwed up by putting too much mercury into our babies look bad. They're like cops, they look out for each other.
You propose that it takes millions of people to manage a cover up. All it takes is those in power like Bush and Frist and, obviously, the CEO's of the drug companies. The peons who work for those people don't want to lose their jobs so they keep their mouths shut. How do you Verstraeten would fare with a polygraph exam? You can't deny what was said at Simpsonwood just by claiming we focus on a few quotes. Those few quotes should have launched an Attorney General's investigation and criminal charges. Who's the scumbag who tells the Attorney General what to do? Who appointed Julie Gerberding to her job? How fast would Julie be fired if she told the truth about thimerosal?
Any janitor could've planted explosives in the WTC with no problem at all. Not that I believe that theory but, with our government involved, anything is possible.
Now, about the reason why you and Kathleen want more children to become autistic and remain that way?

Bronze Dog said...

When you took high school chemistry, Dr Deth had not yet discovered exactly how mercury impairs methylation to cause autism.

He still hasn't even proven that it does. Petri dishes do not equal human body conditions. Especially when you take the short half-life of ethyl mercury into account. Perhaps Dr. Deth has published something I'm not aware of. If so, please enlighten me.

But, that's OK, even Medical Schools aren't teaching students that chelation cures autism. They don't teach that because curing autism would make all the doctors who screwed up by putting too much mercury into our babies look bad. They're like cops, they look out for each other.

Riiiiiiight. Because there's no such thing as a noble doctor. They're AAAAALLLLL involved in the cover up because a few people made mistakes, and an institution full of people who got into the job to help the sick are letting kids become autistic because they consider a handful of people more important than the job they studied for years to become. Not only that, they're willing to pay illions of dollars to support a world-wide cover up.

I present Fore Sam: The world's biggest cynic.

The last refuge of a quack is conspiracy.

You propose that it takes millions of people to manage a cover up. All it takes is those in power like Bush and Frist and, obviously, the CEO's of the drug companies. The peons who work for those people don't want to lose their jobs so they keep their mouths shut.

Riiiiight. Because there's no chance that several hundred whistleblowers with good evidence could get those CEOs ousted. And there's no such thing as university researchers. There's also no chance that person would be willing to sacrifice his job to do his job: Help people.

You have a very low opinion of human beings.

How do you Verstraeten would fare with a polygraph exam?

About as well as he would an aura examiner and an e-meter.

You can't deny what was said at Simpsonwood just by claiming we focus on a few quotes.

I suppose next you're going to tell me the Origin of Species refutes evolution.

Those few quotes should have launched an Attorney General's investigation and criminal charges. Who's the scumbag who tells the Attorney General what to do? Who appointed Julie Gerberding to her job?

Translation: This is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a wookie.

Stay on topic!

How fast would Julie be fired if she told the truth about thimerosal?

The truth, or the shit you people make up about it? Stop skipping steps.

Any janitor could've planted explosives in the WTC with no problem at all. Not that I believe that theory but, with our government involved, anything is possible.

Hundreds, possibly thousands of tons, and strategically placed to cause a collapse?

Now, about the reason why you and Kathleen want more children to become autistic and remain that way?

When all else fails, make shit up.

Now, how about we stay on topic, Mr. Evasive?

What evidence do you have that chelation cures autism. Anecdotes don't count, and I'd rather not get into why if you aren't going to listen.

What evidence do you have that thimerosal causes autism?

Readers: Fore Sam will never answer these basic questions. Just like Creationists will never raise legitimate arguments against evolution, they'll instead focus their PR campaigns on complaining about phantom motives.

To put Fore Sam's conspiracy theory in simpler terms: "The ficitional dog ate my fictional homework!"

Shygetz said...

Wow! I'm fairly new to the mercury-autism discussion, but if Fore Sam is indicative of the pro-mercury side, this is hilarious. Tell you what, Fore Sam--I haven't received my Big Pharma check since I started in science, so as soon as I find a conspiracy on the scale you envision, I'll scream bloody murder.

Teach them not to pay me off promptly...

clone3g said...

Fore Sam: "When you took high school chemistry, Dr Deth had not yet discovered exactly how mercury impairs methylation to cause autism

He still hasn't, genius. Unless you'd care to explain how inhibiting an enzyme with a dash of thimerosal in a lab setting translates in to autism. Show me a single child with autism AND a functional methionine synthase deficiency.

Then produce some research that shows decreased methylation is more common in autism (not J.James' speculation)

Then tell us why methycobalamin should help a supposedly mercury toxic child when it will most definitely methylate inorganic mercury to the more toxic (and neurotoxic) methylmercury form.

Anything else you'd like to add to the same tired crap you've been regurgitating for the last couple of years?

Bronze Dog said...

And after he's done with all that, he should probably get around to explaining how removing the mercury compounds undoes the damage they allegedly did.

Removing a bullet from a body does not bring a person back to life.

Entropy goes one way.

Fore Sam said...

BD;
Some people at universities did do the research. They presented it to the IOM but the IOM had already been told what to find by the CDC. The proof that Deth is accurate can be found in Neubrander's improvement rate of over 90% with methyl B-12. Your claim that MB-12 somehow changes the properties of ethyl mercury seems far fetched. It certainly has had no ill effects on my son.
You've been extremely slow at learning how removing mercury undoes damage. The fact is that mercury kiils brain cells but that is not the cause of the autism. Impaired methylation is the cause of the autism so, with no mercury to impede the process kids can begin to function normally. As far as the autism goes, there is no damage to repair. It's like cleaning a dirty fuel injector in a car. There is no damage to the engine that causes the car to run improperly so you are, once agin, guilty of a poor analogy in your quest to defend negligent, criminal corporations who poison babies. You can continue with this smokescreen ad infinitum but it won't change the fact that our kids are recovering with biomedical treatment. When my son looks into my eyes and smiles (something he could not do for about 8 years) that is proof that chelation has helped him. Your obfuscatory ploy of naming that "anecdotal evidence" with the implied innuendo that that is some sort of malfeasance on my part is just evidence that you are clutching at straws in your deluded attempt at justifying the poisoning of babies. All MD's rely on anecdotal evidence all the time. They know the patient is better when the patient says so. Ergo, it's time for you to shove your nonsensical use of the term and explain to me why you and Kathleen want children to suffer while the companies who poisoned them get richer at their expense.

Bronze Dog said...

Some people at universities did do the research. They presented it to the IOM but the IOM had already been told what to find by the CDC.

Prove it.

The proof that Deth is accurate can be found in Neubrander's improvement rate of over 90% with methyl B-12.

Show me his research. Show me that it supports those results. I'm not taking your word for it.

Your claim that MB-12 somehow changes the properties of ethyl mercury seems far fetched. It certainly has had no ill effects on my son.

Nice of you to put words in my mouth. I never made any such claim.

You've been extremely slow at learning how removing mercury undoes damage.

How can I learn if you never tell me?

The fact is that mercury kiils brain cells but that is not the cause of the autism. Impaired methylation is the cause of the autism so, with no mercury to impede the process kids can begin to function normally. As far as the autism goes, there is no damage to repair. It's like cleaning a dirty fuel injector in a car. There is no damage to the engine that causes the car to run improperly...

Pardon me, but doesn't that sound like a change in your story?

But anyway, PROVE IT!

...so you are, once agin, guilty of a poor analogy in your quest to defend negligent, criminal corporations who poison babies.

What's poor about my analogy? What's the basis of your analogy in reality?

You can continue with this smokescreen ad infinitum but it won't change the fact that our kids are recovering with biomedical treatment. When my son looks into my eyes and smiles (something he could not do for about 8 years) that is proof that chelation has helped him.

So, why should I lower my standards of evidence to the same level as you? Your level of evidence is exactly the same as all the other quack treatments, psychics, etcerta. What makes your story any difference from theirs?

I suppose next you'll be asking me to accept blurry photos as proof of Bigfoot and alien spacecraft.

Your obfuscatory ploy of naming that "anecdotal evidence" with the implied innuendo that that is some sort of malfeasance on my part is just evidence that you are clutching at straws in your deluded attempt at justifying the poisoning of babies.

You're grasping at straws: Straw men. You've never read a single word I've typed, have you? If you bothered reading what I typed, you'd know that I never did any such thing.

All MD's rely on anecdotal evidence all the time.

MDs have moved beyond allopathy and leeches within the last couple of centuries.

They know the patient is better when the patient says so.

That attitude would have killed my mother and grandmother. It's also reliant on humans having infallible sense of status. That's exactly why quacks rely on it: Any perceived improvement, even if it's just a regression to the mean is "evidence" that homeopathy, reiki, etcetera work.

Ergo, it's time for you to shove your nonsensical use of the term...

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it nonsensical. Try looking up "Testimonials" in the Skeptic's Dictionary before you hand-wave it away for arbitrary reasons.

...and explain to me why you and Kathleen want children to suffer while the companies who poisoned them get richer at their expense.

Why are you going on about the motivations of an irrelevant, anonymous blogger like me? Why don't you try presenting, you know, good EVIDENCE?

Once again, Fore Sam shows his inability to remain on topic. He can only hope to distract you away from the topic of proper studies by assuming all humans have godlike perceptive abilities, distracting people by trying to shift the focus away from evidence-gathering procedures and onto irrelevant things like the identities and motivations of people who disagree with him. He employs conspiracy theories to distract people from his lack of evidence. He also tells you what various reports say, without references that would allow people to verify his veracity. Personally, I doubt Fore Sam is being actively dishonest: He simply refuses to understand my arguments (judging from his key word, and I doubt he reads anything he references. He probably only reads the dishonest quote-mining of people like RFK Jr. without critical evaluation.

Bronze Dog said...

Fore Sam, unless your next post contains something like a reference or link to research, it will be deleted.

You've had plenty of time to prove your assertions, but you only post conspiracy theories, ad homenims, hand-waves, unverifiable and inconclusive just-so stories, rants about Chewbacca, and other distractions. Show me the sources for your numbers. When it gets down to it, all science, including medicine, is about numbers. Please, no rants about "intuitive" healing or anything newagey like that.

Infophile said...

Hmm... possibly interesting observation: Notice how Fore Sam's grammar and punctuation seem to steadily degenerate as the conversation goes on? He also seems to have more and more trouble with breaking things up into paragraphs. Is he intentionally making things harder to read in order to distract people, or is he getting more frustrated and thus sloppier?

Either way, I think a response I used on a World of Warcraft board in response to a ridiculously long paragraph is appropriate here, too:

Giant block of text crits Infophile for 1,789.
Infophile dies.